"I Lost 10 Years of My Life": The Brutal Reality of Business Bankruptcy

Sean Weisbrot: Mark Musselman is the founder of MX five Consulting. Which has been helping seven to 11 figure brands get unstuck over the last 15 years. Prior to that, he ran a multi-generational family business with several hundred employees until unfortunately he had to file for bankruptcy. So, in this interview we talk about his experience with bankruptcy and with his consulting. On the bankruptcy side, we talk about how he felt about it and what were some of the things he learned from it and what led him to become a consultant. And on the consultant side, we talk about things like how do you find clients? How do you communicate with them? How do you make them feel like you care about them without being salesy and much, much more So, I hope you enjoy this interview with Mark. I know I did. And. I look forward to seeing what you say in the comments. Thank you. And enjoy. Consulting is something that everyone wants to do, but very few are actually good at. What made you want to get into consulting?

Mark Musselman: That's a great question. Uh, I think the, the thing that prompted me to get into it was when I was running my family's business. At a very young age, I was 30 years old when I took over my family's business. I knew enough to know that there were things I didn't know, and across the leadership team that had been assembled to kinda run this business, which is at that time a $30 million business, roughly 300 people, uh, I knew that they had gaps as well. So, I was aware that with these gaps we had to find a way to close them. And we could do that internally. I. Hiring somebody sort of full-time who had that skillset to come in and, and address those gaps, or we could reach out to people who had that as a singular focus. So, um, I began as the CEO of the business after my father had retired and he was not prone to bringing in anybody, but we were a successful company. And so, I began to hire. And I really appreciate the value that an extraordinarily skilled consultant could have on our business. So as a thing, like we were manufacturing high cube storage, I. We didn't know what we needed to know about high cube storage, so we brought a consulting firm in to help us specifically address that issue as an example. And so, I began to get this relationship and appreciate it for consulting. And so, when my family's business ultimately, you know, unfortunately in 2008, nine, with their bankruptcy, I jumped into consulting because I knew enough of what I could offer in value to other companies that were like mine.

Sean Weisbrot: So, from what I remember, I believe your company went bankruptcy

Mark Musselman: Yes. In 2008, 2009.

Sean Weisbrot: And so, what was the end result? Did you sell that company? Did you get out of bankruptcy? Did you just fold what happened with it? Because you said you moved into consulting, it seems like you moved away from that business.

Mark Musselman: Yeah, so what happened actually is that, um, we were an asset-based lending, you know, funded business. Had a partnership with, uh, a very large bank. I'll leave them nameless, and they got nervous as we came in in 2008, 2009, with sort of the condition of our finances. Complicated story, but long story short is that they called our note. Um, at that time we had a $11 million revolving line of credit. We had about 6.5 million outstanding. And when they called it, we couldn't meet it because of the timing of the year. And we went into this whole thing basically, which is forbearance. Um, during that forbearance period, I went out and found a private equity group who ultimately bought the debt from Wells Fargo and then leveraged the full value of that debt through the bankruptcy process. So, I actually took the business through the bankruptcy process on behalf of what they refer to as a stalking horse. You know, partners. So that's who the private equity showed up being. What, what that's to do is basically cleans up the balance sheet, you know, all those things, uh, resolves the debts and encumbrances and I stayed on for about 12 months, roughly helping this new ownership group operate a business. Um, they had been in our industry, they had owned a couple companies that were ancillary to what we did, and so, um, but they didn't know exactly what we did and how we were doing it. So, I stayed on, and that's, that's it. So, it just sold in January, uh, under the new ownership, I think for like $60 million. So, um, it worked out well for them. My family lost their ownership. All the employees were made whole and complete. Many of them stayed on. Most of them did. The deal was because we just lost ownership in the business.

Sean Weisbrot: How did that make you feel?

Mark Musselman: Wow. Yeah, that's a great question. Um. It is something that was the most challenging period of my life without a question, and there's lots of reasons for that. I think the biggest thing that I walked away from in the experience was the loss of the business, but also for me, the loss of identity, the loss of, you know, this sense of looking good, this, this, you know, so many I things that I would identify myself. I was. As a result of being in the Denver metro area, owning a business, you know, we were, uh, a, a manufacturer in the United States, had a couple hundred employees. All those things are, you know, um, they're notable, uh, when manufacturing jobs in the nineties and the two thousand were going away from the states we were building and growing a manufacturing business. And so, um, I, I had an elevated position in the community, and then all that just collapsed. It was really, really difficult. I tell my kids all the time that I feel like I, I, I literally lost, um, 10 years of my life because for 18 months, roughly, my entire body was bathed in cortisol and adrenaline every day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I couldn't escape it. And, uh, so it was. It was really, really, really difficult.

Sean Weisbrot: Well, I can't say that I've been in that severe of a situation or that complicated of a situation, but I, I feel like I can understand how you feel in regard to stress, the long-term stress. I did my last job for four and a half years. And I felt that every day. Yeah. Because I had invested my own money and I had investors and I had a team of 17 and we were trying so hard to build this thing and launch it and get money from investors and it was very complicated. So, I, you know, dealing with a bankruptcy must have been far more complicated and difficult. And after leaving that company over the last year, I've been kind of trying to figure out. You know, who am I now? cause before I was the founder and CEO of nerve, right? Well, the company doesn't exist anymore, so who the hell am I? I'm the founder and CEO of the building we live to build, right? What does that mean? It's a podcast. What does that mean? Right? It's just right. What, what does that, what's the, that's the foundation. The podcast is the foundation of it. What I'm gonna do with it next, that's what matters. But the, I think fi from a financial standpoint, which you were referring to as well, you had a, a, a, a position in community that was elevated. When I was doing my consulting before I got into the startup, I was making incredible money to a point where I could basically buy anything I wanted to, anything I could think of, I could, I could afford it right then and there in cash, no problem. And when the industry changed and I walked away from that business, I also stopped making money like that. And when I started turning and putting that money into the startup. Not only was I not making big money anymore, I was spending big money with no income stream to replenish it. And that's one of the reasons why I think I became so stressed and so I was. I was losing my identity as I am someone who charges a lot of money, does big things, helps big companies and can afford anything I want to. Now I'm living bare bones, trying to spend as little as I can to put as much money as I can wisely into my business, and so my identity shifted from there as well. Yeah. Um, I used to go on business class flights and now I take economy. Like that was hard. I, I, people don't realize if you've, if you've never flown business, like there's something special about the experience, there's something special about lounges and there's something special about flatbeds over, you know, the ocean and, you know, fresh wine and fresh es, fresh espresso and freshly made meals on the plane for you to, going back to like being on a car, it's, it really, it, it does, it does affect you. It's like, ugh, like. The first few times I had to do economy again. I was like, oh yeah, I'm with like everybody else again. And that sounds horrible, but it's a fact of life, you know?

Mark Musselman: Yeah. I think there's, yeah, I think there's certain, um, I'll use the word luxuries that do become part of that and, you know, I, I can lose myself and my identity inside that if I'm not careful. Right. So, I think. A couple of things. You know, I, like I said, I was 30 years old when I took over running this family business and, and the business was a successful business, had a lot of cash, it was generating and um, and we were a darling of our bank. So, like the bank would take groups of people up to the Ritz Carlton up in Beaver Creek, which is about as posh as you can get. And of course we were, you know, in that top group of people invited up into that experience. And just all the trappings, that's the best word that I can use is like all these trappings of the role, of the significance, et cetera. And then in a nanosecond just gone, and then you're left looking at yourself in the, in the mirror, right, saying, you know, who am I? You know what matters to me? I and I, like you went through windows of time where I had no in, I had it. As, as has been said, I had less than no money. Right. You know, there's having no money and then there's having less than no money. And I, I went from having plenty of money to less than no money, and four kids at the time, you know, an incredibly understanding and supportive wife during that window. Uh, but the stress and the strain was extraordinary. Right. And then, and then you're confronted, I'm confronted with this notion that we need to reinvent ourselves, right. And. And it's almost like taking a chalkboard, a blank slate and saying, okay, here's who I've been. Who do I want to be now? And that's the time in which I, you know, basically moved from CEO of a family-owned manufacturing company to a consultant and advisor. And then that kind of grew into and evolved into an executive business coach and I went directly. To family-owned businesses initially, because we were a multi-generational family-owned business. So, I like, okay, where can I find clients? I'll find clients that I can understand that I can speak to, that I've lived through that experience. All the challenges and the trappings of, you know, being part of a family-owned business and it's got so many rewards and gifts and it's got some other stuff too. So that was the reinvention for me.

Sean Weisbrot: So, yeah, my, for me, the positioning I'm thinking of is companies that are doing SaaS, e-commerce and service, because it's what I know. Like you tell me, oh, go serve an enterprise company doing a billion dollars a year in revenue. I don't understand them. How am I gonna sell them on my product? It just, you know, it doesn't make sense. Plus, uh, you had mentioned earlier working with 6, 7, 8 businesses there. It is easier to work with, easier to form personal relationships with, and easier to get them to listen to your advice and take action on the strategy because they're paying for it. And when they pay, it's enough to hurt them if they don't. So, what exactly was it that you wanted to focus on with consulting when you were approaching these companies? You know, so for me, I'm looking at the cost optimization as an example. What was the thing that you wanted to focus on with them?

Mark Musselman: Well, I think the thing that I wanted to do and that I have, you know, been able to sustainably do for approaching, you know, 15 years now is BA come into an organization that felt like it was stuck. We were stuck as a business. And what I mean by that is having something that we knew was getting in the way of our business, living into its full potential and really not having the ability to see it. Because when at that whole forest in the trees analogy, right? We were so much in the business that we couldn't get out of the business to look at and say, oh, that's it. So, what I've enjoyed is coming into organizations, um, and helping them. You know, go up to a different elevation, look at it through a different lens and perspective to help them identify what that thing or those things are, and then really work at removing those barriers, whatever it might be. And sometimes I partner with other consulting groups when it falls into a range or an area that is outside my expertise. I, I love to collaborate. Um, but mine is really with creating the conversation that has them getting out of what. Is mostly the condition, which is pretense, right? There's a lot of leaders and business owners who they, they, I'll just you, they, they lie and they pretend, you know, and, and they're trying to avoid the thing that's right in the way because they don't wanna name it. So, I can come in and create mostly as access, oddly enough, as a result of my experience going through bankruptcy. You wouldn't think this, but it's very disarming to have a conversation with a business owner where their biggest fear is going out of business. To tell them I've gone through it and, and it was painful and ugly and all, and, and it's all of a sudden it's like, wow, okay. I don't really have to do anything to impress you. Right. If I don't have to overly impress you, I can get honest with you. Right? And then when we're honest, we get into that level of conversation that really begins to expose the things that are getting in the way. So that's, that's been my sort of, um, way of serving clients and. Then that often spills over into one-to-one work with the CEO or people on his or her leadership team. So that's, that's my niche.

Sean Weisbrot: So, I've been exploring the idea of copywriting, and part of it is understanding the level of awareness that your prospect may have. Hmm. And so, if a prospect is less aware, you're more likely to tell them a story. In order to get them to bite, which it sounds like what you do.

Mark Musselman: Yep.

Sean Weisbrot: So, am I to understand that they, they're not totally aware or they may be semi-aware that they have a problem?

Mark Musselman: Yeah, absolutely.

Sean Weisbrot: So, if that's the case, how do you get them to, through your story, recognize that they have a problem that's a great, so that you can then open them up to a discovery of how do we solve this problem?

Mark Musselman: Yeah, I mean, usually the use of stories comes after I've had a chance to be in a conversation. I'm listening to what's going on, asking some, you know, obviously probing questions. And then I, you know, might say, well, you know, go on a little bit more about that thing. And then they'll share whatever they share. And I'd say, you know, I'm gonna share a story with you and, and you know, just, all I want you to do at the end of this story is, you know, share back with me why you think I told you that story. And, and, and what, if any, relevance does the story I just told you have to do with your business? I don't want to give them any answer. I want them to listen to the story and then kind of process and, and, and, you know, and I, and I will never, you know, say that's not right. I just say, okay, say, tell me more about that. You know, what about that story triggered that for you? Because usually when you go down that path. The crumbs are, you know, obvious enough to know that you're getting to the point of something that's real. You know, it's no different than if I gave you a book and 10 other people that I know a book and said, “I’d like you to read this book. All 11 of you are gonna have a different interpretation of the book, right? There's nobody who's gonna have the same. And if I said to you, Hey, Sean, tell me about what you drew from that book. You, you'd tell me what you'd tell me, and then I'd ask. The other 10 people, and they give me a totally different and unique answer and all of them are right. I just wanna be curious, like, tell me why that stood out for you. You know, what was it about that that, you know, had you thinking about your business? And it's in that level of inquiry that I usually find the thing. That they're either not seeing or they wanna hide.

Sean Weisbrot: Hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far, and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of work. And every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love. So that we can bring you something amazing. And every week we're trying really hard to get better guests that have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So, your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and has no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much and we'll take you back to the show now. So, it sounds like part of your discovery process is like being a podcast host.

Mark Musselman: Yeah, very much like being a podcast host. You know, a great question asked at the right time, followed by silence is the most effective tool I've found in my arsenal

Sean Weisbrot: by far. Especially because when. You have silence. The person isn't sure if you're gonna say anything, and if you don't, then they feel the pressure to fill in the gaps.

Mark Musselman: Absolutely. There's a,

Sean Weisbrot: and if you keep remaining silent, they'll, they'll keep giving you more information. Right.

Mark Musselman: There's a woman named Susan Scott who wrote a great book called Fierce Conversations, and she has her own consulting firm and it's international. They do an amazing job with their consultants. In her book, there's a quote that. She talks about when she does consulting and advising, say, let silence do the heavy lifting. Right. And so, I think I'll just say, generally speaking, um, oftentimes call consultants feel a need as they show up into a circumstance to be smart. Right? And, and, and so sometimes consultants will show up with a design to impress. And I, you know, I show up with a design to ask really good questions and then remain silent. Silent and let that silence do all the work, and then just follow up the answer with another question similar to what you're doing with me. Right? So, yeah. Brilliant.

Sean Weisbrot: It's funny because a lot of people feel like when you go to do something related to sales, that you should be telling people like what they want to hear, but. Oftentimes they do so much talking that the person doesn't wanna work with them because they feel like this person doesn't know anything about me. They don't know what my motivations are. They don't know why. Maybe they're not even thinking that deeply, but they just feel something is off. And so, when you spend most of your time letting the person do the talking and prompting them, you are actually building an emotional relationship with them, because people like to talk about themselves. And so, if you minimize what you say only to the most important things, generally when you repeat what they've just said, they, they feel heard, they feel appreciated, they feel respected, and they wanna talk with you more because you're getting them to talk about themselves and then letting them know that you understand them.

Mark Musselman: Absolutely. And you know, I, I tell this to people all the time, and you're right on that, that, you know, they've said the greatest human need is connection. I think that if it is the greatest need, there's a need that's right alongside that, which is to be fully heard and understood and gotten. And so, the experience that you can create for another human being by asking a great question and then fully listening to them. It is the experience of being heard, understood, and gotten. And I think, you know, I, I, I began my career for a company called Earnest and GI Gallo. And you know, back in the late eighties when I came out of university. And they did not let us, in that era of training, get in front of a customer until we mastered the skill of effective questions, which are open-ended questions. We drilled on that for months, and then when we had that. Skills set down, they let us go into the market. So, when we showed up and met with a customer, it's like, you know, what's the one thing you and I should be talking about today relative to your store? Boom. They'd answer, well, tell me more about that. Boom. They'd answer, well, you know, what do you think some solutions might be for that? Boom, they'd answer, and all I had to do was follow the answers to every single question, and pretty soon, if you're really skilled at it. They sell themselves on, and you don't even have to do anything other than meet them where they are. So yeah, you and I are on the exact same page with that.

Sean Weisbrot: So, I, I've never worked for another company doing consulting, but I think the single greatest thing my mom did for me was teach me to never accept a yes or no as the final answer. To always go into, but why is it yes or why is it no? Like, what's your reasoning behind it? What more do I need to know that helped you to reach that answer? And it's that desire for more information that makes me want to ask people questions.

Mark Musselman: Yeah. I'm one. I just, I was smiling because I've got four kids and I'm imagining what that looked like with your mom. I tell why, mom, why? You know that whole, which kids, you know, are curious and they'll ask. A string of wisdom until they get to what they wanna know. Right. And, uh, but you're spot on. And I say this openly, I, when I first got into this world of consulting and coaching, I'll just say, and advise, I've apologized to every single client I had in that first couple years because I was operating an out of a wounded ego, somebody who'd just come out of bankruptcy as the CEO. Very visible, very painful. And I overreacted by trying to impress my clients with what I knew. And it took me a couple years to realize you gotta just be quiet. Nobody cares really about what you know, what they want to tell you is what they need and why they're stuck or in pain or haven't been able, that's the, and so I just, but it took me a couple years to get there. cause I felt like I needed to basically. Um, make up for whatever mistake I felt I had made as the CEO that went through bankruptcy with the company. So yeah,

Sean Weisbrot: I feel like the podcast has been the single greatest opportunity for me to hone those skills of curiosity. I mean, I'll, I've spent my entire life learning everything I possibly can and traveling to many countries, but it's a different kind of curiosity to be able to just spend an hour asking someone questions and then to be able to do that. Like I, I have, I have maybe 10 recordings this month, so it's like almost 10 hours that I get to just ask questions, um, from people of different parts of the world, different age groups, different religious backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds, different language, you know, native languages, different expertise, and I just get to ask them questions. And it's, it's, I, I think if, if anyone wants to be an advisor or a coach, or a consultant or a leader of any kind. They need to have that skill. And like my ex-wife used to complain, she said that I, it felt like we weren't having a conversation, but rather I was just waiting for her to finish what she was saying so I could then say what I wanted to say. Right. And I didn't know what to do with that because. She didn't wanna listen to me talk, but she wanted me to listen to her talk and I felt like I gave her all of my time and energy to, to listen to that. And I had just started the podcast when, soon before we broke up. Yeah, before we got towards. And so now I've had three years in hundreds and hundreds of hours of listening and, and asking questions. And I feel like I would be a better partner to someone now because of that.

Mark Musselman: Yeah, I love that. And I, you know, I share, I was married for 27 years and went through a divorce five years ago and you know, I think what you just said is not uncommon at all. Right. That sense of, um, what you've acquired as a set of skills through listening from hosting, if you could apply that to, you know, a romantic or intimate relationship with somebody as a partner. Oh, my goodness, that's an enormous shift from. How I once occurred, and it sounds like how you were once occurring as well inside that relationship. So, I think it's the same skillset, right? So, um, I, I, I love how you've used what all, what you've learned, you know, to master that skill. And as you pivot into that world of consulting, a hundred percent of those skills will come in. Uh, they'll be invaluable. That's the goal I think.

Sean Weisbrot: Well, I was doing consulting years ago, but I was doing consulting in Chinese, with Chinese customers. So, it was a, a different cultural context for communication where there was very little communication. Actually, it was very much, this is what I need to do it, and like the, the most amount of time was just spent convincing them that I could do it, and then telling them they could talk to a previous client if they wanted to, and then they'd be like, yeah, all right, fine. Yeah. So, I feel like in a western environment, you are actually building a human relationship that in China, like wasn't really seen as necessary. Like it, it's kind of necessary to build a human relationship when you wanna do business long term. But if you're consulting, there's kind of not really a need for it. Where in the West, I feel like you need to build that relationship before they'll give you money.

Mark Musselman: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And you know, and, and I, I think the thing that we have an opportunity. Here to live into is, I guess, the lifetime value of the relationship, not just in the service that can be provided with one client, but you know, if done extremely well, you know, that relationship can spawn into many other referred relationships. I, you know, I, I probably have five clients of mine, if I thought about it, who are responsible for about 95% of my business, you know, from the referral side. And, and that's, I always say it's slowing down to the speed of the relationship, not the transaction, right? So, every single thing that I'm doing is working on what can I do to enhance the quality of the relationship And oh, and then there might be some business that is part of that as well, but it's always about the relationship. And I learned a lot of that, you know, part of the last 15 years I've stepped out of being a consultant day to day, and I have stepped into the role of. Running a real estate company, a residential real estate brokerage here in, in town. And I learned a ton about that sort of sense of caring for clients. cause realtors, the really good ones do it better than anybody I've ever met in any profession. They're extraordinary at, you know, um, that piece, that relationship, the cultivation of a great client. And so, I tip my hat to anybody who's an extremely effective realtor. cause they do it better than anybody and everyone can learn from them for sure.

Sean Weisbrot: So how can you establish a personal relationship with these prospects? Sharing your stories, listening to them, helping them to figure out what the problems are in a timely fashion, so as to get them to sign the contract, pay you, and get started.

Mark Musselman: Yeah, well, it's a great question. Obviously it's probably the $10 million question in the middle of the room. Uh, the way that I approach it is, you know, somehow I get connected with a warm lead, an opportunity, and then I basically commit an amount of time. Usually for me, it's an early intake call. It’s for about an hour. I'm slowed down, I've created space. The only thing I have in mind is just basically asking them initially. And I'm curious, what have you reaching out? What did you make contact with? You know, and then they'll ideally give me some insight into that. And so, well, if you don't mind, just share a little bit more about, you know, how long that thing that you just mentioned has been occurring in your business. I. Or could it be your life, but usually it's business. They'll go on and say, okay, well like, tell me what you've done up to this point in time, uh, you know, to kinda remedy that. Like what do you what? And, and, and what's the impact and what if we, you didn't solve that. I mean, some of those probing questions, right? And usually, I'm talking for about five minutes with those kinds of questions out of an hour. And then what I wanna get really good at doing is just saying, well, let me just summarize what I think I've heard. And you know, and, and you can tell me if I've somehow misunderstood you, but here's what I think I heard you say. And now the question is, with all of what you've said and what you've shared with me, what, if anything, do you wanna do with that? Like, what feels right to you? Um, and let me share what I do and how I could come alongside and be of a partner and a service to you. And if that feels like it's a fit, if you think that might help you solve it, great. If not, let me kind of tell you about some other resources I have that might be able to come in. Who are. Sort of affiliate partners of mine that, you know, have a specialty in that, that I don't, you know, emphasize or don't focus on. So that it's all about serving. And I have, I learned this years ago when I worked for an organization as a delivery consultant for a company called, uh, MPS. We would come in behind, basically, you know, McKenzie, Booz Allen, Accenture, BA and Company. And we would operationalize strategy for these massive companies like hp, et cetera. Um, and one of the guys who was on that consulting delivery team gave me an insight that I love, which is being a hundred percent committed, unbelievably committed to what I do and the way I do it, and totally unattached to the outcome. So that creates freedom. You know, and it creates authenticity and I can speak directly to people and often are very direct and, and, and I don't have a fear or concern that by being direct and clear that it would upset anything because I'm committed to what I do, but unattached to any outcome. When I was first in this business, I was highly attached to the outcome and probably not all that committed. You know, I just wanted to create some money and figure out how to get this thing off the ground. And. Was working at healing my wounds and looking smart and all, and, and so I've just really matured into the role and it's like, listen, if this doesn't work for you, great, no problem. I have no, but I will if, if we work together, this is what it feels like, and then just give 'me a choice. And then I do like to get to Yes, no, very quickly.

Sean Weisbrot: So, you try to close on the one call.

Mark Musselman: I don't even look at it through the closing lens. It's just like, you know, no, not using one call. I, I, I don't like being sold that way. And so, I don't like selling people that way. I like to let people have the opportunity to process. cause I'm a processor as well. So, you know, I just say, Hey, listen, um, no need to make a decision. Here's what it looks like. Why don't you take, you know, talk to your wife, talk to your husband, talk to whoever you need to talk to your leadership team. Figure out whether this feels like it's a fit for you. If it is, I'm gonna put an appointment on my calendar to reach out to you. What do you think? Next Monday. Great. Next Monday. It'd be fantastic if by next Monday you could come to a yes no decision. So, there's not in the moment, but a predetermined time when I'm gonna reach out to them, that gives them time to go back and think about it. And I know that there's people who totally disagree with that and that's okay. I have nothing at all about another person's process. cause there's lots of people. You and I have encountered them many times. Who are looking to get the clothes they want the sale. To me, that's not being of service to somebody. I don't want to be put in a situation where I feel used, forced to make a decision right then without having given myself the benefit of doing what I like to do, which is sit with it for a minute. I think that's just thought and, and sometimes these are, you know, large numbers, so, you know, I wouldn't expect anybody to make that decision right then.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, I like that because. You're, you're making it seem from the start, I don't really care if this happens or not. If we work together, work together. If not, no big deal. There's somebody else that'll come along that's interesting. So, you come from this point of no desperation, no attachments, no, no connections. But hey, I like you and I know I can help you and I would like to work with you, but it's up to you to decide if you want to do it. Otherwise, I can't be bothered to like chase you, but let's give it a few days. So, do you actually make a call with them in the calendar that you both agree upon, or are you just like, I'm gonna send you an email?

Mark Musselman: Yeah, I, what I aspire to do is always book a call, a follow up call, and if they're unwilling to do that or they don't have access to it, then I'll put it on myself saying, I'll call you, I'll reach out to you. And I always prefer, this is something I learned years ago. Um, at Gallo, you, you don't really ever want to give any kind of proposal, you know, like in an email. I. You always want to make a proposal over the phone if you can't do it in person, and there's lots of psychology behind why that's the case, but you know, I, I, I cringe when I see people who, you know, send proposals via email and then don't have a conversation like we're having. Right. There's a lot of reasons to have a personal conversation with somebody and or if. Even if possible, you know, getting in front of somebody personally is the most effective. And then it just kind of goes down from there and, and, and, and there's reasons behind that. And so, I, I always say, well, and if I don't get 'em, I won't send an email, I'll reschedule. If I don't get 'em, I won't send an email, I'll reschedule until I get 'em on the phone and I say, Hey, I wanna walk through this proposal with you, kinda share with you what's going on, et cetera.

Sean Weisbrot: So, if it's like a six or seven figure contract, would you fly to them? Yeah. Would you like make an effort to be like, I wanna meet you in person to do this, or, it's a

Mark Musselman: great question and I, I'd say it would depend, but more often than not if it's at that level, absolutely no question about it.

Sean Weisbrot: But I guess you're working mostly with people in the US right?

Mark Musselman: Yeah, mostly I, but I do have overseas clients for sure. Yep.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. cause yeah, I mean, living in, in Europe, if I have a client in California, it's like 16 hours to fly from Europe to there. Um,

Mark Musselman: yeah,

Sean Weisbrot: as I know, cause I flew from Lisbon to Amsterdam to Seattle recently for my friend's wedding. Yeah. And it was like 14 hours. Yeah. That, that, so that's a huge commitment. I would prefer not to have to. Yeah.

Mark Musselman: I, I, I'd say you gotta use your own discernment, right. To see what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. Um, and I, I would get on a plane for something like that if the probability was really high. I. And I knew that from the conversations and the dialogue and the relationship and the back and forth, then I'd get on a plane and, and, and I see it more as a process. And, you know, the one thing I would say, going back to what you had commented on earlier is, you know, I, I, I share people, I share with people all the time. I am completely and a hundred percent committed and totally unattached. And, and I say that from a place of authenticity because what happens is the minute I attach an outcome. To anything that involves another person making a decision, I'm cooked. cause then that's, I can get this whole, you know, pattern of disappointment, frustration, anger, you know, all the fear, all that stuff that cascades, and I just don't want that in my life. So that's, that's authentic, that's genuine. I don't use it as a sales ploy. It's just really true for me.

Sean Weisbrot: What's the most important thing that you've learned in your life to date?

Mark Musselman: I think the most important thing I've learned in my life is not to take myself too seriously. And I think broadly speaking, if everyone took themselves less seriously, we'd have a lot fewer challenges that we currently face right now, not just in the United States, but globally. Um, I think we're in a condition where people are taking themselves too seriously. And we could all just chill out a little bit and things would work a lot better. That's my, that's, I think that's what I've learned fundamentally.