How to Ethically Manipulate Your Users

Sean Weisbrot: Bryan Farris is the president of Goldfish Code, a US based company that helps companies use motivation to figure out exactly how to design the best application for their customers. So, in this conversation we talked about motivation, like the motivation of why he's doing this business, the motivation behind the process that they come up with. To figure out how to design the best things for these end users, motivation for travel and other things that we like to do with our lives. Uh, what is his morning routine like and how he stays motivated for doing the work that he does and much more. So, this is episode number 201. We have been doing this for almost four years now, and we are just getting started, so let's get to it. Your business is centered around motivation and. Motivation is something that psychologists are extremely interested in. I, I think it's a fascinating topic and I'm really glad that we're going to talk about it. And so, I'm curious to know what motivates you to be curious about motivation?

Bryan Farris: That's, that's a really great meta question. Uh, honestly, for me, I'm, I'm very, uh, empathetic person. I've always, uh. You know, I got very high scores on empathy in, in Myers-Briggs and stuff like that. And so, uh, just throughout my life I've put myself in others' shoes and thought, okay, you know, what is actually driving their action? What is, what is the root cause behind, you know, their perspective on a particular challenge or situation? And, uh, that constant mindset of putting myself in other people's shoes, uh, led to this. You know, more, you know, um, traditional framework for how we approach designing products for users by putting ourselves in their mindset and looking at what will actually motivate them to do the things we want them to do.

Sean Weisbrot: Is there something that happened in your life, or is there something that your parents did that guided you towards that curiosity?

Bryan Farris: Well, it might be that I'm the oldest of five kids, and so when I was younger, I, I had to deal with a bunch of, uh, smaller children that were looking up to me and, uh, you know, kind of followed me. But I also had to be a role model and think about it. Their perspective on things. And, uh, my parents were very values based. So, uh, I think being in that kind of life position, uh, certainly affected my outlook. I find that

Sean Weisbrot: interesting because

Bryan Farris: I.

Sean Weisbrot: I have an older brother and I don't have any younger siblings, and I feel like I'm the more curious and empathetic one. Yeah. And I am confident it's because my parents kind of drove that curiosity and when they saw me picking up books as like a 2-year-old or 3-year-old, they're like. Here, just keep reading. Obviously there's no internet back then. Just here. Just keep reading, keep reading. And they kept giving me books and I, they're like, yeah, you were three reading the encyclopedia. We don't know if you understood what you were reading, but like you were, you were sitting there flipping the pages for like hours. So, we assumed you were. Enjoying it for some reason. Um, so I feel like my curiosity and empathy came very, very, very early. But, but that it was my parents that kind of pushed that along a little bit. Very interesting.

Bryan Farris: Yeah, I can, I can certainly see that My parents were very supportive with me exploring a variety of things. Um, but I, one other thing came to mind while you were saying that I also spent time, uh, in my career working with Acumen Fund. And while I was there, I, uh, met Jo Jocelyn Wyatt, who is part of video. And they have created the concept of human-centered design. Uh, and through interacting with her and learning about, you know, the way that they approached design philosophies, um, and I'm certain that that influenced my mindset as well.

Sean Weisbrot: I've had multiple opportunities to think about motivation and human-centered design through the different companies that I've worked for or, uh, owned. And yet I still have never felt like it. My ideas are right or that I, I, I wonder or worry that they're not doing what I want people to do or that they're not enjoying it the way I'm hoping they'll enjoy it. Do you go through that within your own design process? And if so, how do you minimize that fear that you're doing it wrong?

Bryan Farris: I'm sure, um, you know, everyone throughout, you know, anything that you do, there's elements of, of self-doubt. Uh, but what motivates me to kind of keep going and, and feel confidence that, uh, you know, what we're doing is right, is really one through results that we've seen, but two through, uh, you know, studying a lot of other frameworks and, uh, everything that I've created on the motivation driven design. Side of things is, is rooted in, you know, uh, research that came out of behavioral psychology, uh, or that came out of other, uh, UX design initiatives. And I've read dozens of books, um, on the topic. And as a result, I, I feel like the conclusions I've drawn from all of those are, are rooted in a lot of, uh. Expert research that gives me confidence that it's at least in the right direction now. Uh, the trick is applying all of that philosophy to a particular product and thinking about how that, you know, product can leverage those same kinds of concepts. Uh, and all, you know, because all of this work is dealing with. Humans and how humans are gonna react. It's, it is impossible to be a hundred percent certain that a particular feature or function will achieve the goals. Uh, but that's where, um, post implementation, we have measurement in, in place to ensure that, you know. We're tracking metrics and, and measuring what is successful and what's not. And, you know, using that data-driven approach to guide future improvements. So, there is an element of take your, take your, you know, experience and leverage that to make you know what you believe is the best decision. Uh. Then at the end of the day, it's a data-driven experiment. So that, that initial experience is just the hypothesis. But, uh, once you go ahead and implement it, uh, the. The process becomes more data driven and, therefore, you can have confidence in what you've done.

Sean Weisbrot: What kinds of things do you think about when you're planning a user's journey, for example, I know you said that you look at other texts and research and things like that, but when you put those things aside. There's still work that has to get done, and I'm sure over all these years you've developed sort of a process and I'm not sure if it's the same process for each product, which then may lend itself to kind of, uh, group think where the result is the same across most of the products, um, or whether you try to keep things fresh, uh, for each client based on different inputs. So, I'm really curious about that.

Bryan Farris: Absolutely. So, uh, we do have a process and, uh. It is the same process, but it doesn't result in the group think that you're talking about because pretty early on, uh, things start to go down a unique path. And, uh, by that I mean we start with the strategy and we start primarily with the business strategy. So, what we're looking for is, uh, to talk with the business owner or the stakeholder and understand what are the key business metrics. They are trying to move the needle on with this particular product or feature, and how does that fit in with the broader context of their business ecosystem and, and, you know, bigger strategy. And so based off of that, it really points the direction into, in terms of where our focus should be and what we're trying to achieve. And then what we do is we look at the specific product or application. And look at, you know, what are the actual actions that we want the users to take, uh, in that application that will inevitably lead towards those business goals. So usually there's, you know, a handful of business goals that are, that are top of mind for the stakeholders involved. And then, uh. Each of those goals can be achieved through, you know, several different user actions or user actions that lead to other actions that inevitably lead to those goals. And so, once we have an understanding of the actions that we wanna motivate, uh, then we get into looking at motivation techniques. Uh, and so at that point we're able to. Break down, okay, here's the types of actions, here's different techniques we can use to encourage those actions. And then, uh, we actually go through a user, uh, persona exercise, similar to what, uh, marketing companies do when they're talking about how do we, I. Market a product to different kinds of user personas and, and how, you know, how does the customer base break down into different, uh, categories and, and what does each of those categories care about? And, and how do we make our, uh, marketing, uh, pitch, you know, uh, meet the need of a particular user persona. We take that same kind of approach and break down the user base of a product and, uh, try to understand, you know, how do those. People behave, what do they care about? And then how can we make sure that we apply motivation techniques that will motivate each of the different types of user people to do the actions that we had talked about. And so that's where things start to become much more innovative because once you have these types of techniques, they, they are more of a guide for what motivates someone and not, uh, they're not going to define a specific. Functionality for a specific application, um, until you, you know, get into the weeds of that particular product and what it's about. It can be, it can become very different from product to product once you go through that process.

Sean Weisbrot: When you were describing the process, my thinking was, how can this be fun? How can you make it? Design fun, and not just for the user, but for the people that are working on the deep psychological nuances of motivation to get the design the way you want it, because describing the process is difficult to do. But designing it and making it enjoyable so that the team wants to be there day in and day out for the days, weeks, months, you know, years of work. So how do you make it fun?

Bryan Farris: It's a really great question because actually, um, making it fun is part of what motivates people in general. So, uh, it's. You know, that's part of the, one of the, uh, ways that we can make the actual product that we're doing, uh, more sticky for the users themselves. So, we're looking at ways to make those products fun as well. But the process of going through this, it actually, the, the reason why it becomes fun is because of one of the elements of motivation, which is, uh, empowerment and creativity. And so, uh, when we look at motivating people, one of the elements that we're looking for is how can we embed opportunities for people to be creative, to make choices, uh, within a product or, or an application. And, uh, the reason that that's very motivating for people is cause most people are. Um, kind of social explorer people. We like to build things. We like to create things, and, uh, when you create something, you, you have this intrinsic. Positive feeling. Uh, and it creates this great affinity with what you're doing. And so, um, throughout the products that we make, we try to put in opportunities for the end user to be creative and to experience that, that kind of positive affinity. And, and there's ways to do it subtly and there's ways to do it, you know, in a, in a bigger way. Um. But what I've found is that the process of, you know, taking this data-driven approach of kind of like breaking out the user personas and looking analytically at each of the elements of motivation and then, uh, determining what we might do is. That, that process works. But then at the end of it, we ultimately get to a point where we say, well, we think we can use this motivation technique. Let's brainstorm and be creative about how we could build a feature that meets, you know, that matches this particular application that actually like, does whatever that, uh, particular technique is. And so, there's an element here that's really creative, you know, the entire motivation driven. Design framework provides us with this structure, but it's a, it's a structure that allows us to isolate specific things that we should brainstorm a creative new feature out of. And so, once you get to that point, it gets, it gets to be very fun. We, we have conversations around, well, we could add this feature and then, you know, that might. Like motivate these people and, uh, oh, you know, you can, you could use that to also send a notification to someone else about, you know, um, letting them know what's going on with that particular client and, uh, you know, those kinds of things. Um, get very fun when we're, when we're in that brainstorm session with, with, a client of ours and, and brainstorming what could be done with their product. It gets very exciting for them.

Sean Weisbrot: So exciting for the client, and exciting for the customer. The end user. But does it and, and personally, Robert, I,

Bryan Farris: those are the, those meetings where we're brainstorming new features, uh, are they, they certainly don't feel like work. It feels like a fun, creative session.

Sean Weisbrot: I've always enjoyed the idea of, or the process of coming up with new ideas, and it always fascinates the people I'm working with. They're like, how did you get that? Like, I was just talking to someone the other day. And, uh, she was presented with a business opportunity by a potential partner, and I just started brainstorming ideas around it. And she's like, it wasn't even like, it was just meant to be like a social thing. It wasn't even meant to be like a proper business. She's like, how did you, how did you spend like five seconds and turn it into a business? I was like, cause I, that's how I think. I think about how to make something, make money. I'm, I'm attuned to that. Um, and so I guess you're attuned to, to that, uh, in your own way. Um, I guess my curiosity here is how do you keep your team excited about it through that process, even if the customers and the, and, and the end users are potentially, um, excited about it later down the road?

Bryan Farris: Honestly, it's, it's because my team and I show up every day, you know? We, we make software products and so code is essentially our canvas and, um, these kinds of brainstorms is our paintbrush. And, um, you know, we. We're genuinely excited about building products that are going to be impactful and, and there's, um, sort of a, trust in the process. And knowing that when you go through this and build something that really takes, um, or user motivation into account, that it leads to better outcomes for the end product. And, uh, you know, it being in that world. Showing up each day and having the opportunity to brainstorm and be creative about, you know, what could be included in a product is, is very exciting for us. And, um, I think that my entire team is motivated by that.

Sean Weisbrot: Do you have a morning routine that you use that gets you psyched for the day, that allows you to come with the energy that you need? Probably a nonstop energy for the hours of the day that you're working.

Bryan Farris: Yes, absolutely. My, my day is fairly nonstop. Uh, I'm handling a number of different things, but, uh, yes, I actually exercise every single morning. I basically, the first thing I do when I wake up is I, I'm either out for a run or. Or in the gym hitting weights. And I try to do a pretty intense workout for 30 to 45 minutes. And then, uh, I do have a sort of Zen period of 30 minutes before I actually start my workday. I'll, you know, take my shower, make coffee, uh, sit on and. Just take a moment to reflect before letting the speed of the day kind of come at you. And I think that really kind of grounds me and centers me and, uh, keeps me focused on the top. Priorities.

Sean Weisbrot: Sounds like fairly similar to what I've heard a lot of other people say. I, I'm always curious about that morning routine because. It's not easy doing what we do, right. And we need that energy. But I've seen people go, yeah, I drink five cups of coffee a day. I've heard people go, yeah, I smoke weed all day. I, I've heard people say all sorts of things. Um, but the interesting consistency is exercise and something like meditation.

Bryan Farris: Yep. That's very, uh, very critical for me. I, I find that anytime I am, you know, unable to exercise. Uh, whether it's due to injury or sickness or lack of sleep and I, I needed to get that extra sleep instead. It, it's, it's a setback for sure.

Sean Weisbrot: I've noticed that I came back to Europe a few days ago and I felt quite sick. I got sick in Columbia and went, um, ended up going to the hospital because I wasn't sure it was going on. I was in bed for four days. So, I, I realized that as I am traveling long term, I'm not. Exercising. I might be walking, but I'm not exercising and I'm gaining weight and I'm eating really good. And by good I mean unhealthy. And so, I came back and I instantly bought a scale and some weights so that I could work out in my room, uh, so that I could just get back in shape. And, cause I, I've noticed that when you don't exercise for long periods of time, you just fall apart mentally and physically and, and then you gain weight of course, which, you know, nobody likes to feel. That they've gained weight. So, um, if you weren't doing this, is there anything else that you would really wanna do?

Bryan Farris: Um, well, I will say I do have, I am a, a very, um, avid traveler as well, and I do have a lifelong goal of wanting to, uh, set up my own hostile or, um. You know, potentially a hotel someday with like a restaurant and a bar and, uh, like tour activities and so on and so forth. So, it's a completely different world from, uh, where I am right now. Uh, but someday I would love to do that. Uh, other than that, honestly, uh, I am doing what I love. What I really enjoy is. Coaching and mentoring, uh, both people and companies. And I, I, you know, started my career working at Bain and Company doing strategy consulting there for Fortune 500 companies. And when I was doing that, I, I spent, you know, a lot of time. Doing the strategy for one organization, but then I would move to another organization in a different industry and, uh, work on strategy for them. And that process really illuminated for me how much I enjoy shifting and working with companies in different industries and understanding, you know, the commonalities between them. And I've noticed that I do the same thing in my personal life. Uh. So, one of the reasons I love traveling so much, Hey, just

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Bryan Farris: back to the show now. Uh, and I've been to 137 countries because of the fact that I. I can see the parallels between different parts of the world. You know, if you go to, uh, part of the developing world in, in Southeast Asia and outside of the major city and you see how people behave in rural areas and then you do the exact same thing in, in South America or in, um, Sub-Saharan Africa, you're gonna see, you know, kids playing with sticks and tires in exactly the same way across the world. And, uh, just. Parallels that seem really interesting and fascinating to me, and I find the same kind of thing when I'm advising companies. They might be in. Completely different stages or in different, uh, industries, but I start to see that there's, you know, parallel needs or gaps or lessons that, uh, can be applied. And by being one of those people that walks between the different worlds, um, I can bring my experience from one end, you know, one area to another. And, um, and that I've always just really enjoyed. And so, you know, I. I wouldn't really trade in my job that I have right now for something else, uh, other than yes, that life lifelong goal of someday starting something completely different.

Sean Weisbrot: Well, you got me bead. I'm about 50 countries in, um, most Americans. That's 50 is

Bryan Farris: impressive and I believe you've spent a lot of time abroad, which is also another way to measure your experience.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, I, I left the states in 2008. So, it's been 16 years. Yeah. And, and generally when I go to a country, I'm there like two to four weeks at least because I want to really get to know them. I don't want to go for a few days. And then, and so, uh, I, I like the immersion part. So that was one of the reasons why I liked being in Columbia and then Costa Rica is because they're both Spanish speaking countries. That are nearby each other, but also different in culture. Yeah. And so, by spending so much time in each of them, I was able to see what do I like, what I, what do I not like? Uh, for example, Costa Rica's stupid expensive. It's like three or four times more expensive than Columbia. Yeah. Um. In Columbia, they speak, uh, they English is a lot less common. And so, I had a better experience in Columbia because I was doing tours every day. And the tours were in Spanish. And because I was booking the tours in the middle of the work week, it was usually just me and the tour guide. So, I was getting a VIP tour for the price of a group tour. Yes. And. I would, I would have 2, 3, 4, 5 hours with this guide, and I would just speak Spanish with them. I would learn about the topic and, you know, it was just a phenomenal cultural immersion, immersive experience for Columbia. And then Costa Rica was a little more touristy, a little more commercial, and, uh, a lot more English. And so, it was a little bit sad for me because I had just experienced this incredible thing. And, um, part of it was my, my brother came. Uh, met me in Costa Rica and he doesn't speak Spanish. And so, everything we did, either I had to speak to the people in Spanish and translate, which, uh, is fine. Um, or we had to do something in English so that he'd understand and, and that I think kind of dragged it down. Kind of getting off topic here. Uh, so I guess two questions off topic from the, the motivation. Which country would you like this hotel, hostile restaurant bar to be in? cause I, I'm assuming it's not in the, in the states. Um, if I'm wrong, fair. Uh, if then what part of the states and which, which country has been your favorite so far? And for me it's been Columbia. It's one of the top three. Gotcha. Yeah. Um,

Bryan Farris: my answer for both of those questions would be Thailand. I, I got married in Thailand. Um. Uh, my wife is not from there. We're, you know, we're both from America, but we went, we both loved it there and, uh, got married there. I also, uh, work in Vietnam quite a bit. So, between the two, those are my two favorite countries. Uh, they're very similar but also distinctly different. And, um, I think I would enjoy spending a lot of time, uh, later in life in that part of the world. Well, I lived in Vietnam

Sean Weisbrot: for four years. Not sure you're aware. Yeah. And Vietnam was definitely a beautiful country. I was unhappy to leave it during COVID. I have not been back since then. Thailand, I've been to like four or five times. Um, honestly, Vietnam's better for me than Thailand, as, as a culture, as a society, as I think Vietnam is a lot less. Touched, uh, from the traveler perspective. Sure. So, I think Vietnam is, uh, more enjoyable for me for a number of those reasons, but I, I can't blame you for wanting to, uh, set up something in Thailand. It is definitely a beautiful country.

Bryan Farris: Yeah. I, I would argue that Vietnam is, uh, has a more homegrown economy and therefore doesn't have as much, uh, international tourism as Thailand does. Uh. That partly influences my thought, like Thailand has a, a probably a better market if you were to set up a, you know, tourist location for people to stay. Um, but yeah, it's, for me, it's, I love both countries and, and I agree with you there. There're a little bit different from each other, um, and. They have a different vibe. I mean, perhaps the play is to set up a chain and have locations in both countries.

Sean Weisbrot: Can't, can't stop thinking about business, can you? Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're thinking about retirement overseas because I talked to so many people and they're like, America's the best country. And it's like, yeah. But if you haven't been anywhere else, how do you know one? And, and two, what makes you think you're gonna be able to afford to retire in America? I mean, my aunt's 85 and she retired in Costa Rica 10 years ago with her husband because they couldn't afford to retire in America. And they love Costa Rica. Well, he died about five years ago, but she's, she's still there and she loves it.

Bryan Farris: So yeah, I mean, the money goes a lot further in these other places and, uh, and they're beautiful. So,

Sean Weisbrot: yeah, people don't realize they, when I talk to people in Portugal, they're like, oh, Portugal must be cheap for you. cause they look at me and they go, oh, he is an American. And go, yeah, but I was in Asia for, you know, 15 years and for me, Portugal's really expensive actually. And they're like, how? I'm like, because I was married to a Vietnamese woman and we were living an upper-class lifestyle and I was spending half of the money I'm spending here. And I don't even have my own apartment here, I have to share it here. But there, I had a two-bedroom, two bathroom with like private security, private pool, private park, private gym for half the price. Right. And it's, uh, people don't, don't get it. I'm like, meals are like a dollar or two. And here the meals are like 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, $12. Right? You know? And incredibly delicious. Yeah. Don't even get me started. I, I miss Asia and Vietnam. I do think about it. I would actually quite like to go back to Vietnam and visit this year. cause it's been, uh, three years actually next month. Yeah. June, June 10th is, is three years from when I left Asia. Wow. And I think about it all the time and they're like, why don't you move back to Asia? And I'm like it, well, because you know, I invested in like moving to Europe, right? cause I wanna have a life here now because it'd be nice to have a family here. I think Europe is the best for clean air, clean water, clean food, you know, good education. People are multilingual. So, it's like really decent spot to like raise a family, uh, especially compared to Asia, which generally has. You know, not as clean, uh, environment unfortunately, but, uh, you know, can still dream, right?

Bryan Farris: Yep. You're like, you're dreaming at the space, at least out there

Sean Weisbrot: living, living abroad and getting that experience.

Bryan Farris: Um, I think it's, it's invaluable and it, and it can translate into other aspects of your life too.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I mean, I, one of the benefits for me of traveling is that now I've, I know people in a lot of different countries, so I can say, Hey, let's go here. You know, cause you're right next door. So, for example, I've got a good friend who's from Columbia. I met in China a long time ago, and he's now based in Bogota. And, well, I went to Columbia because I was in Miami and he's in Bogota and he is like, Hey, you should come visit. I'm like, all right, cool. I'm gonna come. And like, I went, yeah. Um, nice

Bryan Farris: and, and like last year. And that's because then you get to see Bogota through his lens. And not just through your own. And, uh, whenever you have a local to show you around, it's amazing.

Sean Weisbrot: Exactly. And like he was, uh, in Bogota last year and I was like, Hey, I was thinking of going to Guatemala, like I've wanted to go there for 10 years. I tried to go and at that time my friend bailed, so I just decided not to go. And he is like, my mom lives in Guatemala City. And I'm like, let's go to Guatemala and let's, you know, let's spend some time there. And he is like, all right, cool. So, we went for a month and we rented, uh, not rented. We took his mom's van and we drove around the country together. He drove because I'm not gonna put myself at risk like that cause the roads there are awful. And he drove and somehow we didn't die multiple times because the roads are really bad there. Um, but it was an amazing experience to. To see it because he, he had lived in Guatemala for like 12 years, so he went to school there. So, he, he met, he introduced me to his friends in one of the cities and we drove around to parts of the country that he'd never had a chance to go to. So, um, you know, yeah, I, I love the ability to just go, yeah, let's go travel here, or, um, I've never been to this country before. Let me do it on my own. So, like, I, I went to Columbia and the first two weeks I was by myself. cause he was like, I, I'll, you know, come to Bogota and we'll spend time together. But I'm not meeting you. I set up Bogota. I'm, I'm busy, I'm, I'm, you know, just. We'll meet there. So, I got both sides of the experience. So, I, I go back to this over and over and over again. People don't really think about it too much, but they just go, ah, you know, I want to travel, but, right, right. There's always that, but, and I'm like, there's no buts. You want to go, go, I. My brother, my brother and I tried to travel together and we were in Panama 12 years ago, and finally we were able to travel to, to Costa Rica together. It's been 12 years and he is already like, next year or this time we're gonna go to Japan. Right. I'm like, I can't promise that I'll be able to go to Japan because I, I don't know where I'm gonna be tomorrow, but, right. Like, you got my attention, you know, but like, I don't know, you wanna go to Japan for two weeks? Like, I feel like I need three or four months at least in Japan. So, like, I don't know, maybe. I'll just start learning Japanese now and then maybe I'll go when I can and then you meet me for some part of it, and then I'll speak Japanese and I'll translate for you then. And he's like, man, go for it. Yeah. It's, it's one of the, one of the motivators for me that, that's okay. Let's go there. One of the motivating factors for me in leaving China was that I was tied to the economy and I knew that the economy was, was in flux. This was in 2014, I realized, and I knew that I had to remove myself from an economy, but I didn't know how to do that without literally leaving China. I said, I, I, I've traveled at that point, I'd already traveled to like 20 countries or so, but I was always reliant on China, and if I wasn't in China, I couldn't make money. And so, I said I need to figure out a way that I can make money from any country. While I'm in any country, if any country has a financial problem, I can still make money from another country and I can go to the countries that have the financial problems so that I can have a better experience because it's cheaper. So, like, I went to Greece and it was cheap, and you know, I've been to Malaysia multiple times and it was always cheap because I, I took advantage of that. Japan is a great example right now of the yen hitting about one 60 to a dollar. It's really weak, so now's an amazing time to go. But if I'm sitting there making dollars, or actually my, my partners are in the up so I get to make British pounds now, which is even better than dollars, then I can have an enjoyable experience and not have to worry about that. So, for me, that motivator was, I don't trust any economy. All the only thing that makes me feel safe is that I don't have to trust any economy. Even, even the British economy can, can do horrible, but if our clients are outside of, you know, the UK, we can still charge them pounds. So, I, I can be wherever I want. I choose to be in Portugal. I don't need the Portuguese economy. The Portuguese economy could be a dumpster fire falling off a cliff. Doesn't matter to me. That's, that's been one of the motivators for me, and I, that's how I've continued to look at my life since I left China seven years ago.

Bryan Farris: Yeah. So, what I'm hearing there is that you're really motivated by a sense of security and, uh, that, that, that that sense of security desire caused you to diversify your, your, uh, revenue sources and really focus on building a kind of. Uh, uh, a business model that is not dependent on the economic fluctuations of any particular country in a, in a very strong way. Um, and then. Part of that is also driven by this idea, by this motivation concept of loss avoidance, which is something that we all are, are motivated by. And it's, it's a, uh, a black hat motivator because what it does is it, it triggers, um, a. Responses quickly, but it doesn't necessarily, uh, create long lasting motivation. The long-lasting motivation that's got you in this situation is autonomy. You want that ability to just be in charge of yourself and be independent and, and that is like this more white hat positive, long-lasting motivation that you want, but it. Like what can trigger more immediate decisions is this idea of loss avoidance. And, uh, you don't want to be in a situation where you're potentially losing money, um, just because of something that's completely outside your control, like economic fluctuations. And so those. Element that, that's sort of the elements at play in your life decision making there. And, uh, I think it's great. I think that you're, um, you're setting yourself up well to be able to kind of withstand changes in the world and achieve your life goals. Um, and it's, I mean, I think that's something that so often people kind of overlook is you only live once, right? And so, you know, this whole idea of like, well, I'd like to travel, but. That we were talking about. I mean to me the, the answer is, but who cares? Like you only live one time. So, if you're, if you have all these life goals and you're not actually setting yourself up to achieve them or to live them, then the years are just gonna go by. And as I've gotten older, they, they go by faster and faster. And so, I think it's really important to that people. Step back and, and put themselves in positions to kind of enjoy, uh, life the way that they want. Um, but for a lot of people that security is really critical and it's more important to have that, you know, um, safe feeling than to get to do all this exploring and, and everything like that. So, kudos to you to kind of figure out the right balance for yourself.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I. I run towards adventure, but because of a concussion 10, 11 years ago in Panama, I, I seek adventure that I can enjoy without it being too dangerous that it could kill me. I, I did that already. And, uh, to avoid the loss of cognitive function or, uh, you know, anything else, health. Um, I, I avoid those things. It's like I did paragliding. You know, it's kind of dangerous, but also just safe enough that like chances of anything bad happening is, is quite low. Like I talked to the guy in Columbia who I did it with, and he's like, yeah, I do like a thousand of these a year. He's never had anyone die. He's probably safe, you know? Yeah. I did skydiving and he is like, yeah, I skydive like 50 times a day. Well, this guy's never got hurt. I'm probably safe. Yeah. So, I, I try to adapt to this, uh, this mindset of, and, and it came from being on planes that have turbulence. cause I've noticed that planes have, have endured more turbulence more frequently and more violently. In the last few years, and I'm, I'm pretty confident it's from climate change, which I don't have the energy to go into here, but what I learned from that was if the people working on the plane are not freaked out, I shouldn't be freaked out because they've probably experienced this and probably worse. So, I use that as a mechanism to calm myself down and, and to just try to enjoy the experience, even if it's like. Uh, anxiety inducing for most people. So, I look at these, you know, oh yeah, this, uh, skydiving or bungee jumping, or these kinds of things. It's like, okay, people are doing it and there, they're not dying, so I should probably trust them because they're enjoying themselves. So why shouldn't I? Um. And I think we can try to put that into a, a business model, not a business model. We're not selling people anything. But I, I think we can put this into some kind of a thing to kind of help wrap up the, the episode where it's like, how can we teach people to stop being motivated by fear? Or to stop using fear as a motivator for their products or their services. And instead help them and their customers be motivated by something positive so that they can help them more. And I'll give you an example, real fast. Slacks hate them. I hate them so much. I tried to build a competitor. I failed, unfortunately, but I tried to build a competitor because their business model was so bad. That they motivated people by fear and pain avoidance, right, which I hate. You lose access to your messages. Exactly. Pay me $5 per user per month and I will prevent you from feeling the pain of not having access to your messages. And I said, this is an awful business model. I don't know how the hell people are paying them hundreds of millions of dollars a year to avoid pain. There's gotta be a better motivator. There has to be a better business model that you can employ that people go, wow, I get to have this feature if I pay. Brilliant. Here's my money. That's what I want. Because I think with that, you can have billions of dollars in revenue from clients instead of hundreds of millions, and they were still running at a loss before they iPod, which is. Insane that they got such a high valuation, but that's a different conversation. So, based on my, my question, how, how can we use motivation in a more positive way?

Bryan Farris: Yeah. So, uh, you know, you are absolutely hitting on kind of elements of the framework that we apply to products and, uh, one of the ways that you can make. A make motivation more positive, uh, is to focus on the broader purpose and, uh, making the product or, or the intent of the actions that people are taking with regards to the product. Uh, something that is like bigger than themselves. So, an example is, uh, Waze, the traffic, uh, uh, driving routing application. Uh. Their messaging to their user base is all about slaying the monster of traffic. Together as a community. And it's this idea that together we can, um, we can actually fight traffic by communicating, uh, updates. And so, when you are reporting that there's traffic ahead or uh, police, you know, scanning speed radar, um. That and you're helping your fellow, you know, drivers that are behind you on the road. It's like an altruistic action that you're doing because you're part of a bigger purpose. And, uh, I mean, at the end of the day, humans have been motivated for centuries by the concept of. Being part of something bigger than themselves. And, and in fact, people have sacrificed their lives for being part of something bigger than themselves and, and the, this bigger mission. And that just creates such a strong importance for people. Uh, and it's, it's the basis for so many affiliations that people have in their, in their lives, you know, the. Like what religion you're a part of, what nation you're a part of, what you know, what movement you're a part of. Uh, you can look at any political movement and the people that are, that are there are motivated by like a lot of things. But one of the big things that keeps them very positive and hopeful is the purpose of the mission. Whatever it is. And so, whenever you're creating a product, if you can create ways for people to feel like it's more than just a tool for themselves, it's more than just something that they can get. Something out of, and it's actually like a group and a community thing that is the, the big winner. And then there's um, also the concept of social influence and having relationships with other members in a community. That's what makes things very sticky. cause at the end of the day, humans are social beings and almost all of the users in most products are going to be social. Even, even introverts are social. They just. Maybe don't want to be surrounded by humans all the time, um, and need some, a break to get energy. But, uh, they measure their lives relative to other people. So, um, it's really important to make all of your products something that. It has opportunities for people to feel like they're part of a community and like they have the opportunity to influence and interact with other members of the product or members of the community. So those are kind of the elements that I would bring to make something feel more positive, if that makes sense.