A Founder's Worst Nightmare: The Day I Had to Fire My Best Friends

Freddie Laker: Firing some of my best friends. I think when you're an entrepreneur, it's really, really common to, um, you know, hire, hire people that you've been friends with for a long time. You love 'em, you trust them. It, you know, it's, it's a, a big line I think between people you maybe you can be successful with in, in your personal life and people you can be successful with your business life and, um, the boundaries that you may have with other people don't exist. So I think frequently things cannot be handled well. And then when they escalate, um, you know, you. You lose a friend. Um, you know, I've had some situations, uh, obviously I don't wanna get too in the details of them, but I had to stop being friends with people that were extremely, really close to me. And, and, you know, it took years before we became friends again because, you know, sometimes the, the, the kind of breaking up over work just, it just creates too much tension, you know, in the friendship. And I always find that to be, um, you know, really sad. Frankly.

Sean Weisbrot: Why don't we start by saying. Tell everyone a little bit about what your business does, and if you don't mind saying how much you guys, uh, do on average Premier.

Freddie Laker: Chameleon Collective is a company I founded in 2015. Um, we work primarily for the investor community, for private equity firms and, and, and other investors like venture capitalists. Um, and we effectively help, uh, companies that are going through intense periods of transformation or intense periods of growth, uh, by helping them, um, with their commercial, uh, focus, which typically falls in this world of sales. Marketing or digital? Typically eCommerce, uh, the company effectively has three core divisions. The first one is where we started. We, uh, have, uh, about 45 interim leaders, think heads of sales, heads of marketing, or heads of digital, um, that we can airdrop into different companies as needed. Uh, we have, um, a secondary group that is, uh. We'll, kind of executionally focused subject matter experts that can support those leaders or our client's leaders in executing the strategies and plans we put into place. And then we also have, uh, a full team of recruiters. Um, and so our value prop in essence is that we can airdrop in these kind of. Amazing commercially focused leaders and, and entire teams underneath them when a company is having to scale or maybe the internal team had been replaced because they weren't up to, up to snuff. Um, and then while we're in there, we can actually hire the permanent teams. And basically peel ourselves out of the way as we start to onboard, uh, the new team. It's a little bit, um, you know, when you start dealing with investors who want to grow first and have plenty of money to spend to make that growth happen, um, it's a little bit like, uh, you know, being asked to drive a bus at a hundred miles an hour and. Change all four wheels on the bus without slowing down. Um, and that's been a big success for us. So since we started it, um, we're getting very, very close to crossing 3 million a month in revenue now. Um, so it's, uh, we were on the Inc 5,000 last year and I'm quite confident we're gonna rank again this year.

Sean Weisbrot: Nice. Congrats. I think last year when we spoke you were at 2 million a month, so that's a huge, a huge jump in like, in like a year's time. Yeah. It's

Freddie Laker: still growing, like, growing like wildfire. Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: So nice. Congrats. Thanks, man. So what. Made you excited about starting this company and what keeps you excited about this company?

Freddie Laker: I hope I give this best slash strangest answer. Anyone ever gives you the, if you, when you ask this question, um, I wasn't excited about starting a company at all, let alone, uh, this company. You know, when I started Chameleon Collective, it wasn't really even about Chameleon Collective. It was. Uh, I was in a place where I was, I was angry. I would say I was disillusioned with, um, you know, corporate America in the sense that I didn't really want to go take another traditional job. Um, I didn't, uh, wanna start another company in a, at least a traditional sense. I didn't want all the payroll and the expenses and the management and, you know, uh. Work, you know, workers that just kind of created stress in my life. And I very much went into Chameleon Collective saying, you know what? I'm not gonna start a company at all. I'm just gonna go be this independent mercenary gun for hire for the private equity and venture capital world. Um, I think because I was angry and. You know, kind of not happy with the way that things worked. I was really determined to try and find a, a better way. Um, and so I think what I got really passionate about was, uh, completely rethinking the way a company should be structured. Um, and I did that because. Kind of bluntly 'cause I was kind of angry with how everything worked. And I didn't want this, I wasn't setting out to build a company. I just didn't really give a crap, uh, if I was doing anything that was non-traditional because I wasn't planning to build something to sell. I wasn't planning, you know, uh, to, to build this kind of big business and, and scale it. I just wanted to make myself happy and I felt like there had to be a better way to work. I think the irony of all that is that through that process I ended up building the best business I've ever been involved in because I refuse to kind of do anything in a normal way. Now I'm extremely passionate about it, um, because it makes me feel really good. Um, and so, uh, yeah, it's an unusual way to get to the best business I've ever been involved in. Um, but maybe sometimes, um, you know, you just have to be in a, an odd head space to try a new, a new Perth.

Sean Weisbrot: Fair enough. So, has there ever been a point since you started this company, non-company, that you regretted it, that you wished it would stop or that you wanted to, to, to not continue with it?

Freddie Laker: That's a great question. Um, I, I have had that experience with every other company I've ever been involved in except collective. Um, so I can tell you, you know, this is, uh, I guess my fourth. Kind of well-known company. I've had lots of other little things I've done in between, and I think I always go through that kind of like, you know, classic entrepreneurial, like, hell yeah, I'm gonna take over the world. And then like, you know, it doesn't quite work the right way, or the stuff starts to drive you a little crazier. Clients drive you a little crazier. You don't kneel product market fit. You start feeling kind of sad for yourself. Um, I've ne I've never had that, um, moment with Kamer Collective, not even for one moment.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. I think you're the only person that's ever said that they haven't had that, so that's cool.

Freddie Laker: Is isn't there? What? I get it, like when I told you everything is different about this company. For me, I, I really mean that. And, and I think the reason why I don't feel that way is the way that Kao collective is structured for anyone who hasn't seen the other interview that we did together, Sean, is um, you know, we're effectively a decentralized organization. We have no formal hierarchy. We use a derivative management style called Holacracy. We're effectively employee owned. Uh, so, you know, huge, huge ownership stake by, by our team. And, and that lack of hierarchy means that I have, um, I effectively work in a company where there are no employees and no bosses. We're all, we're all equal in that environment, and I think because. It doesn't cradle as an entrepreneur, it is very, it's very normal for all the stress to kind of roll back to you as the founder or the co-founder or the CEO or whatever. Um, yeah, sure I have stress like everyone else, but I, I share that burden, um, with the. You know, the members of the collective. And I find that because people, um, you know, in our model are given more reward, but they also have to so assume more risk. It makes everyone more accountable. And so I feel like I'm in this group where everyone is really accountable and it only feels, I feel like as an entrepreneur, it only feels soul crushing when you're the only person enduring the burden. But when you're doing it as a group, you feel that things feel, or as a collective, sorry, can't resist. Um, you know, it, it doesn't, I don't feel like the burden ever feels that, that painful.

Sean Weisbrot: So how did you decide who. Can have equity and who doesn't. 'cause obviously since you're the one that started it, like it, there is an aspect of control that you had to allow, you know, to give up in order for these people to get the equity and to have the responsibility. So how did you decide who deserves that or So say to,

Freddie Laker: again, another great question. Um, I'm gonna go on a small tangent and I'm gonna, I'm gonna riff on a little bit about what I think is kind of wrong with traditional companies, and I'm gonna tell you how I solve this problem. So. Uh, all of us have heard that we've, you know, in some form or the other, whether you're in the media or talking to friends or whatever, they talk about the system being rigged. You know, and some people talk about that in politics. Some people talk about that in economics and capitalism. Um, I think to me, what that basically means is that, and I'm a, you know, diehard capitalist to be extra clear. Um, I feel though that. There is a an issue where the more successful you become, the more money and power you create for yourself. And the more power and money you create for yourself, the more ability you have to effectively change the rules of the system. So that you can make more money and more power, which then allows you to create more changes in the system. And that's how we end up with this kind of great disparity that we see, um, in, in, in our society. And so, um, so I think to make the system not rigged, you have to have a standardized rule set around how everything works. Not allow that rule set to change ever. This is why people are so passionate about the blockchain. Worth noting, you know, even with all the crazy, you know, quote unquote crypto winter we're going through here in, uh, you know, July of 2022. Um, but, uh, what we, when I did with Camil Collective was I didn't decide. Who, uh, gets equity and who doesn't get equity. What I did was I worked with the early members of Chameleon Collective to align on a system that decides who gets equity, and it has nothing to do with what I, who I feel should get it or who should not get it. It is a completely based on people's merits. And what they do for Canoon Collective. So it's a rule-based system that we fanatically, adhere to and don't let anyone play, uh, change or play around with. So I think in a normal company what happens is, you know, you get some. Uh, you know, big fish who comes in and they go, well, I've done this and I've done that and I've done all these amazing things in my career and 'cause of that, I'm not even gonna join your company unless you give me X. Um, we kind of go, cool, don't really give a shit. Uh, here's our system. All of us use the same system. And it's completely based on what you do moving forward, not based on what you have done in the past. Um, and so it basically is a calculation of, um. Contribution that people have made to the company in terms of their level of effort and also effectively how much actual business they run through collective. And that calculates on an annual basis into effectively, uh, generating options for an option pool that effectively represents 80% of the company. Um, and, and that remaining 20 is actually something I kept for myself. That's the only thing I've ever done for myself with Chameleon Collective, um, as the founder. Uh, worth noting every other company I've ever owned in my life, I earned 80 and everyone else earned 20 before the investors got involved. Um, this is the inverse of that. Um, but it's, it's completely fair. It's completely egalitarian, and it has nothing to do with my opinion, and that's why no one ever feels like I can rig the system for myself or for anyone else's benefit. Well,

Sean Weisbrot: it's pretty heavy, but obviously it's working because you, your company is growing crazy fast, so everyone's happy it sounds like.

Freddie Laker: Thanks, man. It's, it's, again, it's, it's, uh, I think there's just a lot of people that feel this way and you see it, you know, you see people talking about it all the time, and, and, and a great reflection of that is. There are certain members of Chameleon Collective who don't have these big, giant fancy prior roles that they've had, you know, that some of the other chameleons have had with these. You know, we've had, we've got, just for, again, people that don't know me are Chameleon Collective. You know, there are people in our company with these credible, like it used to be the CMO billion dollar companies, multi-billion dollar companies, and then there are quite literally people in here that. Didn't have any C-suite titles and are turning over incredible financial numbers at Community Collective. And they own more equity than, than some of these other guys with the big fancy titles. And when I say guys, by the way, I mean any gender, just to be clear. Uh, but um, you know, it's, and I think that's amazing. I think it's powerful because. They came in and it wasn't about what they did. They just, they, they, they're hustled. They, they, they're working in the system. They understand how to be successful in our model, and they're rewarded for that, not because I happen to like them a lot personally.

Sean Weisbrot: I'm curious, uh, about the equity thing. I. Is it like at the end of the year they get like a dividend based on how much equity they have? Or is it like the company buys back their shares and at the end of the year everyone starts over at zero again and they have to earn it again? Like how, how does that all work?

Freddie Laker: Yeah. I, I, I, I'll share as much as I can without getting into kind of the, the more confidential parts that can move collective. Um, we basically, uh, every year you, we do a tally. Then based on the, effectively the value you created through our kind of documented formula, um, you gain a certain number of options and each year there's an ever increasing number of options in that option pool. So in year one, if there were a hundred options. Uh, and you owned one of them, then you owned 1% of that 80% of the company in year two. If you got two more and there was another a hundred issued or whatever, then you'd have, you know, three divided by 200 and so and so basically, um, what it does is that it was, it is specifically designed to make sure that anyone who contributed to the value of Kao Collective is recognized for that. But it disproportionately favors people that remain in Income collective. So if you showed up for one year and you had a huge year, great, cool. You should be respected and honored for that. And you'll have some equity in the company if we ever go to exit. But the people that are here every year, 10 years, you know, whatever, consistently, um, you know, earning through the company and adding value to the company, then they're gonna maintain a higher percentage within the business.

Sean Weisbrot: So you brought me to another interesting point, which is you mentioned potential exit. Now, I did one of these interviews yesterday. Obviously, you know, as it as these episodes come out, it does. It's not gonna be yesterday. The last person I interviewed, his company, he's been running it for 20 years, and this year they're on track to do 28 million. He has no desire to sell this ever, like he wants to, to die in the chair, basically. Right? Like he wants to run this conversation. Yeah. The guy I interviewed before him, his company did 25 million the year that he sold it. He had also been running that company for 20 years and he was like, I just turned 63. I want to retire. So, uh, I'm curious, what would make you want to exit this company, if ever?

Freddie Laker: That's a great question. Um. One of the biggest reasons I think Canoon Collective has been, uh, so successful is that, uh, compared to, you know, some of the things I've worked on, um, is I, I don't, I, I personally, and I can't speak for the rest of the collective, uh, I personally have no desire to, to do an exit. I've, I've done that before. Um, I, you know, I, I've done it a couple times now, and all I ended up doing, uh, because I'm, I'm extremely passionate about company culture. All I found was that you join another company, you effectively get assimilated in their culture. And then it's not that thing that maybe you loved anymore, and then all a sudden you need to go feel like a need to go do another one. Um, so I look at Chameleon Collective, like home. Uh, I don't really wanna mess with home, you know, and, um. Uh, I, but I also even, and I, I want to be clear in saying you never say never, right? So, yes, we needed a model within KA collective. To make sure that people felt that they were getting value and equity in the business. Because it would be unfair if 10 years from now I changed my mind or someone makes us some crazy offer that I'm like, yeah, just kidding. I'd love to sell. You know? And uh, and you know, the people that were all part of that process need to make sure that they're, uh, that, you know, it's fair, it's fair to everyone of all fair and reasonable being the name of the game. Uh, that being said. I have other entrepreneurial ventures that I work on that I'd love to sell, and, and I'm trying to build those in a very different way so that they're easy to sell, easy to buy, uh, you know, great margins, you know, highly optimized for that kind of stuff. Um, but I think as an entrepreneur, just taking them more the, let's call it the psychological or the emotional side of it, um, I think that, um, some of the most common reasons I've heard and, and I, and it leads to my own past, like my first company I felt that I sold. Second company I sold because I was tired. That was literally the reason I was just tired. I just couldn't, I couldn't keep it up. We talked about that exhaustion, you know, a moment ago and, and, and how that impacts people. I just, and I was, you know, 15, 20 years younger than I am now. Um, and that was just tired because again, but it was also a traditional model. And all, all per led back to me and I buried the weight, uh, a huge amount of weight for the stresses of the company. And I just couldn't take it anymore. It was exhausting. Um, and so sometimes people do it 'cause they're just tired. Sometimes people wanna do it because, um, they want to retire. Um, I could see that motivating me, uh, at some point and just saying, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm ready to check out. My father worked too, was in his eighties. Um. I don't think that I would want to do this till I was, you know, in my, in my eighties. I'd like to advise startups and other entrepreneurs and stuff probably until I'm in my seventies or so. But, um, but uh, yeah, I just, I don't think I'm in a big rush. I think the biggest metric is people free most often. So because they want security for their family and things like that. Um, and they want that peace of peace of mind. Um, economic peace of mind. Um, I just want to be happy. That's actually my biggest motivator. So if I somehow think that selling would allow me to be more happy, then yeah, I could do that. You know?

Sean Weisbrot: Hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far, and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of work and every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love so that we can bring you something amazing. And every week we're trying really hard to get better guests that have better stories and improve. Our ability to tell their stories. So your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a, like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much, and we'll take you back to the show now. So if that's your big motivator, what's your biggest fear?

Freddie Laker: Hmm. Uh, excluding, excluding all my existential paranoia about the world. Uh, I'll take, I'll, I'll scratch all those off that so I don't look like too much of a paranoid nut. Um, I think my biggest fear is, is, um, I mean, it sounds overly simple to say unhappy, but I think, uh, I don't like feeling trapped would probably be the biggest thing. So sometimes I feel like when you sell. Um, you, you're at the mercy of other people. So I think as an entrepreneur, it's very common to want to have control over your own destiny. I think that's a really, really big motivator in people that are entrepreneurs. This, you know, I, I find that, um. I'm able to kind of go along on, on the ride with other people. Um, but then Annette, at some point I always feel like, you know, my vision will end up disagreeing with their vision. And, and there's very few people that I have this kind of like, feel like I've got like lifelong vision alignment with. Um, and then when that happens that as an entrepreneur is just as my personality type, I really struggle with that. And I think when you work for someone else, especially if it's a full-time job, I. That's your only source of income. You can feel really trapped. And I know people who are listening to this podcast right now can really identify with this, that they've got a bad boss or a bad manager who don't even have to be an entrepreneur who's selling. And you're like, well, I can't do anything. You know, this person's. Prick or they don't, I hate working for them or whatever it is. And, and then you're like, but I have, uh, bills to pay and I got kids to feed and I got mortgage to pay, and I got car payments and whatever else, and I don't know where else I can find another job. Especially when you start going into like this potential upcoming recession that everyone seems to be talking about, and then it, and then, and feeling trapped is a horrible, horrible, horrible feeling. So I don't like to feel trapped and I, even if I'm like, uh, you know, driving off the, driving the, driving the car off the edge of the cliff, I'm still way happier as long as I'm driving.

Sean Weisbrot: Fair enough. I remember when the pandemic started, even I was in Vietnam and. I was afraid that I was gonna be trapped because I knew that the building I was in was 46 stories tall. It had a central air conditioning unit that was spread across the entire building. It's supplied air to everywhere, so if there's bad air somewhere, it's going to the rest of the building and the elevators can be electronically sealed and turned off. Which means they could prevent you from leaving your floor. And the stairwell was also electronically sealed and only opened in the case of fire, which means, oh hell no. If they wanted, they could jail you in your, in your floor for as long as they wanted. And my thought was no. So hell no. So like, as soon as it kind of announced, I told, I told my fiance and Alex ex-wife like, no, we're. We, or actually we were boyfriend, girlfriend and we, yeah. And I was like, no, we're leaving now. Like. Within 48 hours, I had my shit packed and we were in her hometown and we had a house and we had control over the front door. Yeah. It was a, a landed house, like the, you know, land on all sides. And I was like, it's, it's important.

Freddie Laker: Yeah. It's peace of mind controlling your own destiny. Um, for, and those of you who follow your podcast, I always think it's super cool that how many places you live, by the way. So hats off to you, uh, with your, with your global adventures.

Sean Weisbrot: Thanks. I typically spend about five years in a country. Something like that. So this whole thing with Portugal works out quite well. International man of mystery, except I don't have a British accent. So

Freddie Laker: you can work on that. I'm sure there's a YouTube video out there that you can go full Madonna. One year top. Sean, I believe in you. I'll

Sean Weisbrot: see about it. So what's been the hardest decision you'd have to, you've had to make so far?

Freddie Laker: Firing some of my best friends. Yeah, I'd say, do you wanna talk about it? Yeah, it's, I, I'd say, you know, I think when you're an entrepreneur, it's really, really common to, um, you know, hire, hire people that you've been friends with for a long time. You love 'em, you trust them. Uh, you know, I see I, the people who I see, like start working with their wife or significant other whatever, I think are extremely brave. Uh, you know, and, um, it, you know, it's, it's a, a big line I think between people you maybe you can be successful with and. In your personal life and people you can be successful in your business life and, um, the boundaries that you may have with other people don't exist. So I think frequently things cannot be handled well, and then when they escalate, um, you know, you lose a friend. Um, you know, I've had some situations, uh, obviously I don't wanna go too in the details of them, but where, uh, you know, I had to stop being friends with people that were extremely, really close to me. And, and, you know, it took years before we became friends again because, you know, sometimes the, the, the kind of breaking up over work just, it just creates too much tension, you know, in the friendship. And I always find that to be, um. Really sad, frankly.

Sean Weisbrot: Mm. I hired two people that I was close with and fired them both. Yeah.

Freddie Laker: It's rough. Don't do it.

Sean Weisbrot: There, there's, there's another guy I hired, I, I have, I have known him for 22 years and he started three years ago. We, we had never really worked on anything together kind of. And I wasn't even sure that he could do it. I hired him as the COOI wasn't sure he could do it, but I knew that I was desperate. I couldn't continue to do the operations and like all of the things I was doing, I just, I couldn't handle it. So I gave him a chance. 'cause it was at the right time where he was fed up with his job and he thought they were gonna fire him. And I was like, screw it. Lemme just hire him. So I gave him a chance. And he has been the best fricking thing to happen to. That company's awesome.

Freddie Laker: Yeah, it, look, I'm not saying it can't go right, and I've definitely had, I've got multiple instances where it weren't right. But, you know, as being the question, being painful, those are the ones. And, and I think, um, I was chatting with another, uh, uh, entrepreneur who I'm a big, big fan of, happens to be in town visiting me right now. We were talking about, um, a common trait that was that you, we can handle almost an infinite amount of, of work stress, you know, and that it is like, and that kinda stuff does for the most part, doesn't really phase us, but that, um, kind of quote unquote, uh, affairs of the heart. Whether that's, you know, love, you know, love or friends or whatever. Like when that goes wrong, it's just crazy stressful. Um, because I think when it, um. When things are, uh, more business focused, it's very black and white. You can have a very clear answer, yes or no and and about how something works or doesn't work. But as soon as it starts getting anything that kind of an affair at the heart, the, there's no clear answer on things. So it's harder, I think, just to kinda end it in your mind, and that's the kind of stuff that you find laying yourself, laying in bed. You know, kind of spinning out over, so to speak, and, and, um, and so I think that that's, those are the ones I find the most, the most painful

Sean Weisbrot: for me too. I know whenever I would get into an argument with my ex-wife, like it ruined the rest of my day. I was just thinking like, what, what happened? And, and how can I, you know, try to resolve the issue when I see her next? And like, but like the, the day was, was basically ruined. Like I couldn't think at work. Um, so with that, you kind of brought me to. The idea I wanna know about next, which is how do you anticipate problems?

Freddie Laker: Hmm. That's a great question. Um, look, everyone's personality is, is is different. Um, I. In my case, uh, uh, and whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is debatable. I'm pretty obsessive compulsive. Uh, so I find that like, um, when I, when I start thinking about something, I'm, I play kind of chess with an idea in my head. And what I mean by that is really non chess players out there. I'm like, okay, well I'm gonna do this. Then if I do this, what will happen then? And if I do that, then they do that, then I'll do this. Then if I do that, then the next person will do this. Like, what if I don't do that? And then they do this, and then I'll think out, like, you know, every possible scenario for what may happen. Um, and, and I just, just kind of do this. I find myself kind of multitasking, doing. I could be checking my email and running things like this through my head or, you know, walking or running these kind of scenarios through my head. So, um, a lot of times I feel that, um. I've anticipated any pot or, or many, many potential problems. I certainly can't partici, uh, anticipate any potential problem. But I think I, um, I, I, I take, I guess the guidance would be, I take the, the time I. The effort to not, not do things impulsively or if I do do them impulsively, then at least I take the time to think about what the repercussions of whatever impulsive thing I just did. And that way when whatever response happens, I'm not caught off guard basically. Um, and then the other thing I'd say is, uh, you know, I try and be knowledgeable about any, any subject. I think when you kind of anticipate problems, um, if you don't have some. Credible and hopeful mery of a, a subject matter, then you're gonna get caught on the back foot. Um, I stopped doing businesses, I stopped doing business in place that I have no business in being there. Uh, you know, so if I, if I don't feel like, you know, I, I've gotten, I've, over the years I've invested in and been involved in a whole bunch of really random. Industries, like the trucking world or whatever. And like, I shouldn't have been done that. Like I, I knew nothing about the space. So my ability to anticipate problems was basically non-existent because I can't, I can't play chess, uh, if my knowledge level only lets me play checkers, you know what I'm saying? So, so I think, um, you know, you, you got, you gotta know the space, otherwise you just can't figure out what, what may come at you

Sean Weisbrot: at the same time. For anyone that's a first time entrepreneur, you essentially are unable to play chess for any industry because you have exposure to nothing. And whatever you decide to do, you literally don't know what you don't know.

Freddie Laker: That's a good point. Um, I would, I, I'll give a good example just from today though. So like, I'm not a developer, uh, or by any standards, but I'm a pretty, pretty technical person. I'm working on a new product, uh, that requires, um, us to start using some. Different kind of APIs and systems for financial data, uh, and payment processing and things like that. I'm talking to the team about what I think they should do and, and kind of where I think the product needs to go, but I. I, I found myself then kind of pouring over different product sites, really taking the time to understand the product features. I frequently will call up different options if we are four or five different options, and I'll go get product demos from all of them. And I might do those meetings without the developers around so I can ask all the dumb questions that I want to ask so I can get knowledgeable. And so I feel like even if you're a first time entrepreneur. You may not have the accumulated knowledge a guy with my fantastic haircut has. Uh, but you may, uh, you may, you know, it doesn't mean you can't try and get smart. You know, um, it doesn't mean you can't try and get out there and, and, uh, um, and, uh, and, and, and learn as much as you can. So, you know, you're not a, uh, you know, a 57th level, uh, chess grand master or whatever yet, but you can, you can certainly, you can certainly get in there and start anticipating some of the problems. There's no, there's no excuse, no matter how early on you are in your entrepreneurial journey to go into anything completely blind, in my opinion.

Sean Weisbrot: What's the most important thing you've ever learned? I

Freddie Laker: wanna tell you a rude story. Uh, and it was, it was the most important thing I've ever learned was, uh, something my father said to me once. It was really, really, really good advice. Um, and, uh, and as you noted, c Sean at the beginning of the show, my father was a, was a pretty respected entrepreneur. He was. Knighted by the Queen for his entrepreneurial ventures. He was pr pretty bright guy and he was, I think around 55 years old when he had me. And so we had a pretty big age gap I between us. And he'd, he'd been around, been around the block, so to speak. So I think when I'm 20, he's already in his, in mid seventies and, and done some really, really incredible stuff. And he and I were, uh, really, really close. Uh, you know, both the father of son, but I also consider him to be one of my best friends. And we really like to talk about two things. Not everyone understood a relationship, but this is what my dad and I like to talk about. We talked about business. We talked about women. That was the two things we loved to love to geek out on. And uh, one day I came to him for a, a problem I was having, which was always fell into one of those two, uh, categories normally. And, uh, I remember telling him this problem and he. Very respectful, and he didn't interrupt me and he let me tell the story. And I remember him kind of nodding and listening and nodding and listening and, and he got, um, you know, let me get through his two or three minute story. And I, and, and he looked at me and said, some, I've fucked up things you haven't even thought of yet. And, and, and, and now he was kind of being half funny. But actually what he said was really profound and, and what he meant, what he, how I interpreted that and still interpret it this day is, you know, that as many things that I may have been frustrated with, or lessons that I may had to learn, that I'm still like, you know, there, there, there's like, there are people out there who are, you know, miles ahead of where I may be, who they're gonna see these experiences and, and you know, there's a million new lessons that I, I have to learn and that's just part of life. And I just gotta get, I just gotta get through them all. And so it, it, it, it to me gave me this really high, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Acceptance that I can screw up. And that's perfectly fine. And in fact, I can screw up and I can laugh about it. Even really painful ones, like maybe I didn't laugh about them at the time, especially some of the very expensive lessons I've learned, uh, but I laugh about them now. You know, you have to have, you have to have a good sense of humor about these things at some point and be able to, to shrug them off. And if you, you can't kind of recognize that some of these things that you screw up along the way. Maybe, maybe they were not, uh, you know, someone mentioned this quote to me last night from Tony Robbins. You know, these things that happen in life, they're, they're not something that happened to you, but they happen for you. Um, because there are all these kind of accumulated knowledge that helps you to be a better person or a better entrepreneur, or just to kind of shape and define who you are. Um, and for that reason, I, I, I'm not too hard on myself. Again, I, I, uh, I've had some really cool things I've been able to do in my career. I've screwed it up a ton of times. Um, but I'm really happy so it's all worked out in the end.

Sean Weisbrot: What's the most expensive mistake you've made? And if you have a financial number for that, that would be great as well.

Freddie Laker: Yeah, yeah. I was, I was actually talking about this last night, so my, my startup guide. You know, I had probably 500 to seven 50 of my own money in it. And then I, and then I didn't pay myself for like two years. Uh, so like all the accumulated costs and that, so whatever, you know, easily a million plus dollars, you know, there. Um, so that was expensive. That was a big lesson. I learned a lot of stuff from that. Um, from that, um, uh, you know, company, um, I. About starting, you know, when to start a company, what kind of companies I should be thinking about, uh, focusing on. Um, uh, you know, it it, it was for me it was, it was like, you know, when, when you go out there and you, I, I think what I, I realized after doing that was kind of understanding what kind of CCOO, uh, CEO, excuse me, I am, I realized that I'm a sales and marketing, CEO, my superpower is growing the companies. Not, and, and so to go and invent a product and quit my job and stop basically doing my superpower, which is the growth part, why I waited a year and a half to try and get the product market fit that was dumb. Like I should have basically stayed in my current job, built the company, built the product behind the scenes, work crazy hours, not that I was shy about that and still not, and then, and then basically built a product I could sell. Then launched a company and raised it, you know, and kind of started, um, you know, going off my payroll and my income and so on. Like, I probably could have pulled that one off if I didn't burn so much of my money just sitting around and watching the devs, you know, build stuff. Not that I was really sitting around, but you get my point, you know, I wasn't able to use my, my superpower. Um, one other quick one I, I think worth mentioning. You know, that was the, um, you know, biggest, biggest lesson I learned in terms of just pain painful, um, you know, uh, failed business experience. Um, one that was, uh, less expensive but probably just as valuable if not more valuable. Um, I've only been in one lawsuit in my entire life. Um, and this was probably in the. Maybe late nineties or early two thousands. And, uh, I had built this web project for a company and, uh, it had gone wrong. You know, I was one at the time, it was the biggest web project I'd ever built. It was a couple hundred thousand bucks, which is pretty good for a probably 21-year-old or whatever it was at the time. 22 years old maybe. And, um. And basically it, it, it went sideways and this guy was unhappy. He, he sued me. I was convinced he was a big disaster, and I wanted to, you know, I wanted to fight him. And, uh, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. My father didn't want to help me because he wanted me in terms of guidance 'cause he thought this was a great entrepreneurial lesson for me. So he encouraged me to go figure it out on my own real trial by fired stuff. Here I hired a lawyer. I didn't know anything about lawyers 'cause I never hired him for him. So I hired a law, a real estate lawyer, to defend me in a litigation lawsuit because I didn't, I didn't really, I mean, he'd done some litigation, but I didn't know the difference between any of these people. And I guess he'd done some of it enough to say, sure, I'll do this job. Um, that we started going horribly off the rails and I realized it was gonna get really, really costly for me. I was very stressed. I went, went to my father for advice. He said, okay, let me. You, you screwed up. Let me point you to the right, the right guys got this very top firm called Increment, Centerfi involved big, like really, really kind of big, scary lawyer type. They immediately start turning the case around. So now this guy's on the back foot and in the end basically he got nothing. I got nothing. Uh, did, we negotiated down to a stalemate except this stalking huge legal bill. And, and I remember being in the, you know, 20 something floor, office of center. And, you know, big floor to ceiling windows, like overlooking, you know, Fort Lo. And uh, and I remember say it's like a 30 person boardroom kind of thing, and I walk over in there, this coffee station, I grab one of the coffee mugs, I go. I'm taking this coffee mug. Everyone's like, yeah, O okay, sure. Whatever. And I was like, and I guess if someone can someone get me a marker please. And I got, I, and I handed them the coffee mug around. I had all the lawyers that were involved sign it, and then I wrote around the bottom of the ring, uh, the world's only, you know, whatever it was, a hundred thousand dollars coffee mug. And uh, and so now anytime anyone wants to talk to you about lawsuits like. Lemme share a little coffee mug. I have. I'm like, this is why you don't, you don't want to get into a lawsuit because the only thing you're really gonna get, only, only thing you're gonna end up with is a hundred thousand or a coffee mug from a, from a, um, a lawyer. And I've actually, uh, it was expensive lesson financially, but I actually think that coffee mug has saved me a fortune. I pulled that thing out with clients. And they start talking tough and, and looks like things are maybe going in a funny direction. And I find it, I found it to be an exceptionally useful negotiation tool to be like, we should just work this out between us now, because otherwise we're gonna write a massive, it's not, it's gonna cost us both a fortune and legal fees. So, good lesson to learn, but a painful one. And expensive. Unless you want, unless you like really expensive coffee mugs.

Sean Weisbrot: I can say I've never been in a lawsuit, and I think part of it is not being in America for my entire adult life, although I did get screwed. I. By a guy I raised money for. I raised 150,000 seed round for him in China. He was American, and I got my commission, it was like $7,500 whatever, and part of the deal was, and it was verbal. That was my problem. We didn't have a written contract. Or it was, it was a, like a, a wink wink, not, not kind of verbal aspect, but like, it's not written in the contract that if that guy gave him more money or that guy brought somebody else in, I would con, I would still get the commission at the same rate. Well, the guy ended up giving him another 150,000 like a month later, but the CEO didn't tell me that he got it, so he fucked me out of another 7,500. This is while he hired me full time to, that is pretty cheeky work for him. Right. So I raised him the money he then could afford to hire a team. He built the team. He included me in the team. Yeah. And then he fucked me out of another commission.

Freddie Laker: Yeah. Not cool.

Sean Weisbrot: I, and once I, once I found out two months later, I was like, fuck you and I left. Um. The thing that was funny about it was like it was a blockchain company and it This was in 2016? 20? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 2016. He wanted me to build an ICO launchpad, and so like I was building a system for us to be able to help other companies launch their ICOs. Mm-hmm. I took that shit with me. Yeah.

Freddie Laker: Sony upside.

Sean Weisbrot: Like the guy was an idiot. He basically paid me to learn how to start and launch an ICO. Yeah. And I took that knowledge with me and I brought it to a ton of other clients and he got none of it because he was a greedy little moron. Like he, he helped me, in fact, quite a lot.

Freddie Laker: Well, the one, one, I think the important lesson I think you and I both kinda outlined here is that, you know what, even when you have these moments where it might cost you a lot financially, at least put the knowledge to use. I can tell you like every one of those things, even when I, you know, lost a bunch of money, like I either saved money or made more money later because of that experience. And that's what I was saying, you know, like my dad's bit of advice to me, like I really took that to heart. Like it's just, it's not the end of the world to, to have these, have these experiences. What is the end of the world if you watch, so, especially when you watch someone else, you're like. You want some, like, you know, driving off the cliff over and over and over again and you're like, are you not learning anything from these experiences? Um, those are the people I worry about, frankly.

Sean Weisbrot: What's the first thing you do in the morning and don't say PE or anything like that.

Freddie Laker: Uh. The first thing I do is, I hate to say I hate to miss. I, I literally, like, I walk straight, I literally go to the, i, I do my morning bathroom routine kind of thing, and then I go straight to my desk. You know, I, I, I basically, I have my first meeting, I get up at seven and my first meeting is at seven 30. Um, and then, and then typically my wife will bring me a, a, a cup of tea and, and, and, uh, you know, something, but before eight. But yeah, I'm, I'm like right into the thick of it, um, as, as soon as I wake up.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. I typically, but I've stopped my late,

Freddie Laker: I've stopped my late night stuff, so I used to love working till like two and three in the morning, and now I don't work at late at night at all, and I just start really early. Fair enough.

Sean Weisbrot: I typically early by my

Freddie Laker: skaters anyway, I'm like, I my, I was like infamously nocturnal most of my life and that's kind of flipped for me recently and I like it. I realized that the big thing for me was, it wasn't that I liked working late at night or early in the morning. I like it when the house is quiet. That's what I've realized, like, and it doesn't matter whether I got up early or stay up late, I just like it when the house is quiet. I find that I'm very focused at that time.

Sean Weisbrot: Fair enough. So then what's the last thing you do at night?

Freddie Laker: Yeah, so I'm obsessed with reading online news. So typically I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll find myself kind of, you know, going through Google News. Um, you know, is one of the last things I do. Um, I try and le to read, uh, less and less kind of world and political news because I find that it just stresses me out and, uh, makes me, uh, crazy. Um, and, um, and, and more about like business news, tech news, innovation news, science news. Um, um, I like reading about computer hardware or if there's some subject I'm in, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll just, I, I spend it. I basically spend that time trying to get smart. And consume, consume some form of information.

Sean Weisbrot: I kind of do that all throughout the day. My day, I like, I, I've spoken to a lot of people, like, ah, I've got like an hour that I focus on. I'm like, I, I just, I can't, my a DD makes it impossible. I. Yeah,

Freddie Laker: so, so, you know, it's funny, I used to be like that and, uh, because it was like, it's like an addiction for me. And so I installed this plugin on, uh, on my browser called Stay Focused. And it basically put, I put all the news sites in it and all the social sites, and I allow my, and you can put a limit on them. And I allow myself basically 10 minutes on those, between 8:00 AM to like 6:00 PM and then basically I can't get to them. You know, or if I do, it cuts me off. And then if I try and visit them, it actually is like, it literally says like, shouldn't you be working right now? And so reading news was like such a twitch behavior for me. Um, as like a, like just a habit of like a compulsive habit that I find myself, even though I know that plugins there, I'll just be like, control t new tab. And like, I'll instantly type in like some new site. They're like, no, no, no. And that, and it's made me like. Exponentially more, uh, productive and I think that's probably why I binge news. Right. Really late at night now.

Sean Weisbrot: Well, the, the issue for me isn't that stuff, it's that I've got 10 Messenger apps and they're all on my phone.

Freddie Laker: I turned all the notifications off on my me Messenger apps.

Sean Weisbrot: See, I tried to do that and I found myself getting more anxious because what if somebody messages me and I don't know, because I don't get a notification. So I, I, I,

Freddie Laker: I, so I basically, I kept, I kept one on, uh, so text messages, the only thing that sends me notifications still, and I, and I, and so on the weekends, it's, you know, I basically, I just, I had so many Messenger apps like you that the notificate, constant stream of notifications of making me so unproductive, I. So I, um, have basically multiple blocked out windows during the day in my calendar, and I use that for email and Slack and I just respond to it all in a really focused manner. Otherwise, you know, what happens is you let people basically drag you around by your nose. What they, they think you're supposed to be focused on versus what you think you're supposed to be focused on. Right. And, and, um, there's nothing that's so urgent that people can't wait. Like three, I had those intervals every three hours basically. So if people can't wait three hours, then they should call me. It's like, if it's really a crisis, like you should pick up the phone and go old school.

Sean Weisbrot: Uh, it's, you know

Freddie Laker: what I mean?

Sean Weisbrot: For me, it's mostly just like friends and family and stuff that, like the, the hardest thing is the freaking time zone difference. Like when I was in Asia, it's easy. I knew everyone's 12 hours behind. You don't have to

Freddie Laker: turn it off. Yeah, I, uh, I, I strongly recommend, uh. You know, just, just killing it. It's, it's the only way you can be productive, in my opinion.

Sean Weisbrot: What I do now is usually my phone is on silent, so I, I, I turn the notifications back on, but I have the phone on silent so the notifications happen. But like, if I am doing something like this, my phone's over there, I don't know what's going on. I'm not gonna think about it. I'm not gonna look. So sometimes I, like if I'm with a friend for lunch or whatever, um, or I'm on a date or whatever it is like. Nothing gets through because it's on silent. So I don't even get a, a vibration or anything. So I don't know that it's happening. And for some reason that's, that makes me feel a lot better than just not having any notifications with the phone. Not on silent. Yeah. If

Freddie Laker: you, if you, if you're good at using that, go for it. Yeah. I, I, I'm in, I get insane amounts of Slack messages every day and I just, that in particular, I had to turn off.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, my team doesn't normally message me too much. I'll get like one or two messages a day on Slack. 'cause most of the, oh, I, I'm talking like

Freddie Laker: hundreds of messages of channels and stuff. I mean, I just had to block them all out. So

Sean Weisbrot: what my team does is, even though we've got like a. There's like a management channel, right? We do a little bit of conversation about the tech there or like the QA or the marketing. But a lot of the daily stuff they've got like private channels that I'm not in, so, so they don't bother me unless it's like a management thing. So then my question is, from the first time you started a company until now, how have you had to change yourself in order to stay relevant in what you're doing?

Freddie Laker: Hmm. Um. I would say that the biggest thing that I've had to change when I reflect on my entrepreneurial career is, um, the, the constant, I'm gonna kind of divide these in two things. So the constant that made me successful throughout my career is that I'm extremely passionate about things that I work on. I care about things. I'm inspired by things. And other people say that my kind of passion level for the things that I'm excited about is very infectious. And for that reason that people wanna, you know, kind of align themselves with me for, you know, that that reason or clients want to, you know, like they, they can tell I care about my craft or, or whatever it is I'm working on. Um, what I think I've had to temper throughout those years is, um. I've always been a bit of a, a, a, you know, a wild, wild child and a bit of a, a wild spirit. I've always, you know, um, you know, liked, liked to have my fair, my fair share of fun. And I think as, as I've, um, gone through my career, I've realized that, you know, you, you, that you have to be careful about how you, um, project that out into the world. And so I think, you know, what you don't want to be perceived is. Is like super passionate and excitable, but almost like an, like a, not, I don't mean to stereotype in a negative way here, but like an artist type that like, yeah, they're crazy creative, but like they can't really see things through or, um, you know, so I think, um, what I've, I've really focused on is, is, is my, is basically my, my discipline. In terms of like, you know, things like we just talked about where I'm like really disciplined about like, my focus time because I, I can't let my, my a DD get the best of me. You know, I needed to make sure that even though, you know, I got a bit of a wild streak, it's like. You know, I can't let that kind of stuff like impact my work or impact people's perception of me because they, you know, especially when I'm not out partying up like I used to be, you know, in my, my, my earlier parts of my career. But I definitely think like that kind of stuff. Um, while fun and I, I, I knew everyone, you know, loved, loved being with me and, and having fun with me. I think that, you know, you have to be really careful as an entrepreneur. Like it in some cases it can damage your credibility and, and, um. You know, finding this balance between being liked and, and, um, and being loved and liked and people wanting to engage with you, but also being trusted. I'm not even gonna say respected. Being trusted I think is really important. You know, whether that's a client trusting you with their money or in their time and, and, uh. But to get a project done, if you're in a service business or that is an, a potential employee who trusts you with their career and their livelihood, or it is a investor trusting you with their money and their time and their credibility, you know, you, it, it's, you have to be really conscious of this. Um. The biggest, the, the moment that inflection point really happened for me was when, um, you know, I had a digital agency called I Chameleon. It was my second, uh, notable business and, uh, you know, and that was acquired by, by s Sapient. And, um, I was, uh, I. You know, a young director there and then became one of the youngest VPs in the, in the history of the business. And um, and I was still going through this wild streak and I realized at the time that, you know, this was my first exposure to like big corporate America. And I realized as much as I liked and got on well with all those people, this was the first time I really got exposed to corporate politics that the. Other people were using, you know, kind of my, my wild streak to kind of like chip away at my credibility in some ways. Um, because that's what, that's what, you know, crappy people do, frankly. And I just realized that like, you know what? I was like, I need to not, I need to be really conscious. I my personal brand, um, and, and, um, and just, you know, how I project myself out into the world and I think it made me. Um, pull things in a little bit, and I can, I can already feel the, the, the quote unquote fun people out there going, oh, you shouldn't let any other people dictate, you know, how you are and this stuff. But you know what? It's easy to say that. But when you're an entrepreneur. You are accountable to the people that work for you. I, I believe, you know, in, in, in the servant leadership, like you are accountable to your investors. It's not just you. If you want to just go that doing that and don't care what anyone ever thinks about you, that's fine, but don't do a business where other people depend on you or you're accountable to other people, and then you can do whatever the hell you want. But when you do have other people that depend on you and you're accountable to, and you're responsible for, and you are responsible for the people that work for you as an entrepreneur. Then you, you know, you, you gotta be more polished, um, all the time. Um, and I hated that because again, as a guy with a wild streak, kind of acknowledging that ruffled my feathers on every possible level, um, that I had to conform or at least be a little more careful in how I, I put myself out in the world. Um, but I don't regret it. I think it's, I think it's, it's, it's an important, it's an important step and, um. Yeah. That, that would be it. It's, it is definitely, it is, it is, I'm, I'm very different from where I was, uh, you know, whenever I started doing this, uh, 20, 20 some odd years ago now.