A Data CEO's Terrifying Warning About AI and "Truth"

Sean Weisbrot: Cary Sparrow is the founder and CEO of wage scape, which provides developers, analysts, and consulting firms with access to the world's largest, most up-to-date labor market data collection. He has combined 35 plus years of engineering, military consulting and operations leadership in achieving organizational growth within hr. IT engineering and technology verticals. I wanted to talk with him because he's working with data, he's working with ai, he's working with people, and he is working with hr, and all of these things are super important right now. I. And so in this really interesting conversation with him, we touched upon a AI and hr. We touched upon what AI can and can't do, what humans should do in the hiring process, and we touched upon how he's able to get this data and. Help companies with it. We talked about longevity when running a business. His business has been around for almost nine years. We talked about figuring out how to keep improving as your company is growing while we talked about so much more. The last thing I wanna highlight is in the end, he shares his biggest life lesson and you're definitely gonna wanna hear it because it's deep. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Carrie Sparrow and look forward to our episode next week. Where I talk with Ken Cox about privacy. Thank you. And enjoy. What has been the hardest thing you've had to endure running this company?

Cary Sparrow: Oh, without a doubt. At the beginning, it was an entire shift in, in my, my mental framework. Um. You know, I came from a career that I was in the military then I was in, you know, I was, uh, in consulting, I was a consulting leader, and then I was a corporate leader. And in those roles, you, you get paid to be right. You get paid to, you know, um, find risk and manage it out of whatever system you're, uh, you know, you're working with. And as a small business founder, uh, I wake up every morning knowing that almost everything that I do and almost everything I know about the business is wrong in some way. And so, you know, the biggest risk that I have is not doing things fast enough. Uh, it's not about knowing the right answer. It's about figuring out what's gonna get in the way and then addressing that as fast as possible. And that's a totally different change in mindset. I mean, I think people that, that come in to be, uh, you know, a startup founder after a corporate career, it's a really big and difficult change in perspective where, you know, you know you're wrong all the time. Whereas in the corporate world. You get paid to be right all the time or find the people who are right all the time. And, and we just don't do that. You know, we just, we just have to go, you know, speed, speed is the only thing we survive on. And, uh, you know, being, you know, being right is a luxury that, uh, we just don't have.

Sean Weisbrot: I remember being told many times over, I can't even count how many times that I was doing something wrong. By my CTO or my COO or my CMO or my product manager constantly being told I was wrong. The only people who told me I was doing anything back with my investors. So obviously I, I trusted my team more. You've been doing this particular company for over eight years. Do you feel like you're doing it any better now after all this time? Because I, I've heard it takes almost 10 years to figure out your business.

Cary Sparrow: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's a few different benchmarks. Um. I definitely feel like we're doing things better now, but the, but the challenges keep changing every day. Um, so, you know, we do now really well, what was required a couple years ago, you know, but what's required today, we're figuring out just as fast as we can. I mean, the one thing, you know, you, you build off of what you got, right? And so we've, we've been able to establish a brand. Um, that brand is gaining traction. Uh, we can measure how it's gaining traction, so that's, that's good. Um, but the world is, you know, the world's moving with us and so our competitors are moving. Our client expect, you know, client's expectations are moving. I. Um, the way that we have to deal with partners are moving, the choices that we have are growing, which sounds like a good thing, but it's actually not. Uh, because it means that, you know, it's becoming much more challenging to pick the right path, uh, because we only have so many resources and we can only, you know, we, if we don't focus, we'll die, we get spread too thin. Um, so yeah, I would say that we're doing, you know. You know, it's like, it's like the military saying, uh, that uh, the military gets really good at figuring out how to win the last war. But, you know, that's, uh, you know, what we have to do today is just as fresh, you know? And so. You know, so yeah, we're good at some things, uh, but that doesn't mean we're gonna be good enough at the things that count.

Sean Weisbrot: So, at this point in the lifecycle of your business, what do you think is the most important thing you guys need to get better at?

Cary Sparrow: So, we're at the point where we have, we have a set of products. We have a brand. And we've got, you know, we've got revenue. So we've got sales traction. Uh, we have to really turn that into a machine. We have to turn it into a machine that is replicable, it's repeatable, it's, uh, predictable. Uh, so that we can really, you know, exercise, I think better control over, over the business itself. Uh, you know, leading up to now every sale was unique. Um, every client was unique. I. Product configurations evolved, um, and we're really working really hard as a team. I. Uh, in order to kind of get the machine running as smooth as as it needs to be,

Sean Weisbrot: do you have any sort of idea of what that would take to actually happen and what kind of a timeline it would be to get there?

Cary Sparrow: We're, we're working on it as fast as we can, as fast as we can. Uh, part of it is practice. Uh, you know, there's a big part of it, which is really brutally honest listening. You mentioned how you really thrived on getting, you know, kind of really blunt, honest feedback from your team. We do the same with our clients, with our prospects, with anyone that interacts with us. And so building a capability where we're actively seeking, you know, that kind of. Really brutal, honest feedback from the market is critical to what we're doing. Also, there's like no ego on my team. Everybody knows what has to be done and, and there's like no pride in authorship or ownership at all. We just are focused on really how are we doing and how can we get better. And that includes sometimes ripping things apart, ripping things totally apart. Uh, in other cases it's finding unexpected things that it turns out we're doing well and building off of those. Um, so, uh, but I would say that the, the biggest thing is just really high definition self-awareness by the whole. By the whole team?

Sean Weisbrot: Is that something you have to cultivate or is that something you have to hire for?

Cary Sparrow: A little bit of both. I would say, um, absolutely hire people that have, uh, you know, towering curiosity, um, and kind of high resilience and a high, you know, capacity to learn. Uh, so, you know, there's, there's some of that, which is, you know, we hire for. There's a big part of it though, which is about how we show up every day, and that's how I show up every day, uh, which is, you know, being willing, willing to say, you know what? We're wrong in this area, or Here's what we heard, and that's different. Um, in some cases we were right, but the situation changes. Like, you know, an example, you know. The other day we had a whole, um, segment of potential clients that a year ago we thought were not gonna be commercially viable. We thought we wouldn't be able to make any money from 'em. We thought our products were not gonna be, you know, as attractive and the market's changed. And, you know, in talking with folks, I got really compelling feedback just over the last couple of weeks that that group of clients actually is now ready for what we do. So we, you know, we evolved very quickly. One of the benefits of being in a small business is we can make decisions really fast. And you know, as we heard that, we said, okay, everything we learned about, you know, marketing campaigns and product configuration, everything else, now let's apply that to this group. 'cause they weren't ready a year ago, but they're ready now. So let's go.

Sean Weisbrot: I want to touch on that in a little bit, but I wanna first go back to the hiring for that. Obviously your business is related to. Human resources and wages, and you're using ai, which is a bunch of cool stuff, and hopefully we have the time to talk about all of that. Uh, but I'm curious to know about how you identify or how you test applicants for your company for that curiosity and that resilience that you were talking about before.

Cary Sparrow: You know, I, I always start every interview by asking people what, you know, what questions they have for me. I flip it around immediately and I tell, I can tell an enormous amount about people by, you know, how they think about that question, right? So have they done their homework? Um, have they started to kind of crawl into my head, uh, even before they've met me? Um, and. I would say that that's, that's like the one consistent thing I do when hiring people is immediately start to sense, you know, how, you know, how do they interrogate an opportunity, how do they, you know, explore what's available. And then from that. You know, you can, you can riff on that in a discussion to learn like, okay, what do they do with that information? You know, and how have they, how have they tackled new challenges in the past and what turns 'em on, what, you know, what gives them energy? Uh, these are all, you know, all the things that pe people talk about, kind of how unreliable interviews are. But I would say that we're pretty successful, um, with the approach that we take because we don't ask for. You know, we, we don't lead with how does your experience match with what the requirements of the role are. We, we lead with the questions around, you know, how curious are you? How fast can you learn? How willing are you to say, I don't know, uh, and then follow up with, you know, questions to figure out, uh, whatever it is that you don't know. So those are the kinds of things that, uh, that. That we look for right away.

Sean Weisbrot: That's really interesting. I'm glad I asked you that because I've been busy hiring for Do they pay attention to the instructions, which is also very important for a lot of roles.

Cary Sparrow: Yeah, I was gonna say, it's really telling when you explicitly state here's exactly what the role is, and when you ask people like. You know, something that relates to something that they should have already known, uh, based on what you've communicated, if they actually have paid attention, right?

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. Well, not, not just that, but, you know, if we place an ad on LinkedIn and we say, do not click the LinkedIn, uh, do not click the LinkedIn button, click on here and fill out the form. If they don't do that, they're automatically disqualified. So in that case, on from your end, if you ask someone, you know, do you have any questions for me? Or What do you know about my business? If they don't have an answer, you just go, thank you for your time. Goodbye.

Cary Sparrow: Pretty much, you know, to be honest with you. Um, 'cause that's how they're gonna show up. Uh, so it doesn't matter the role if it's, you know, if it's client facing role. You're not gonna be able to serve clients well, uh, unless you really, you know, strive to understand the client's situation. Um, you're not, you know, if it's an operations role, you're not going to do well in that role unless you're really, really aggressively figuring out the operations and identifying kind of where, you know, you know how to make sure things are running as reliably as possible. And, and the list kind of goes on from there, right? So, so yeah, how people show up is almost immediately apparent to me.

Sean Weisbrot: So if somebody fails to show up at the interview in that regard, mentally, I. Would you say, I'm not gonna give you a chance to continue, but here's why. Or you just let them go and let them figure it out for themselves.

Cary Sparrow: So generally, every, every hiring interview is a brand opportunity for us. That's the way that I look at it. So how I show up is equally important, maybe even more important. So, um. I work to kind of draw out their best strengths, give them an opportunity to really, um, kind of showcase what they can do, um, and also take the opportunity to, you know, if they don't know that much about us, let them know, uh, what we do and what's special about, about what we do. Um, so I don't, uh, you know, I'm not the kind of guy that will just cut off an interview and the. Uh, the, you know, the unstated, um, uh, feedback is, you're wasting my time. I don't, I don't do that. Uh, although I. The depth and the quality of the discussion won't be nearly as as good as, you know, somebody who has done their homework, who is really interested in us and has come prepared.

Sean Weisbrot: What part of the hiring process do you insert yourself?

Cary Sparrow: It depends on the role. If the, if the role is gonna report to me directly, then I'm the first discussion. Um, and so I do all the screening interviews for anyone who's gonna report to me, and then I turn. Folks over to my team, uh, to do two things. One is to give the candidate an opportunity to learn more about us from multiple perspectives. Um, to ask my team, you know, uh, their own questions and hear the answers that, uh, they need to hear. And then also for my team to understand what it's gonna be like to work with the individual. We're, uh, you know, one thing to keep in mind is, um, we're a totally virtual company and so we, we founded, as you said, founded in 2015. I set the company up as virtual, um, right from the beginning. So we were remote before remote was even a thing. And so, uh, most of my team, uh. Sees each other in person on a very, very infrequent basis. It ha it happens maybe once or twice a year where we're together for different events. But, but, and so we can figure out, um, that, uh, you know, we, we do everything like you and I are talking right now, you know, by video, by phone. And, you know, that's how we have to kind of suss out what it's gonna be like to work with, work with somebody. So if it's somebody that's gonna be working for, uh, you know, in the organization, but not reporting to me, um, we're still small enough that I approve, uh, I approve every hire. Um, so I approve anytime we're gonna hire somebody. I approve that. I approve the role that they're gonna be coming into. I leave it to whoever their, their supervisor's gonna be to really manage the interview process. Um, but I stay pretty close to how they're managing the process. I wanna know who they're talking with. I wanna understand kind of. What the different strengths and any limitations are with and, and how they wanna move forward. And then I do the second to last discussion in every one of those cases. So once they've kind of made it through whatever the appropriate screening is, I am the last discussion before an offer gets made. And then whoever their hiring manager is makes the offer itself. And that's an opportunity for, I want everyone to hear, you know, my view of. The organization, um, our direction and our culture, the kinds of things that are important to, uh, to our success. I want to be able to convey how committed we are to their success, um, and how committed I am to their success. I wanna make sure they know me, uh, and like I said, that they have a, they have a, a sense that they can ask any question they need. Uh, in order to be successful in that role. So that's the approach I take with, with folks that don't report directly to me.

Sean Weisbrot: I think that's fantastic. It's something similar to what I was doing where I just wanted to make sure that I was the one disseminating the culture because even if other people ran the process, which they frequently did, I, I always put myself as the first person that everyone met. Even if. There was someone else that was going to be managing them just because I wanted them to know the company culture, the vision, and the direction and, and our why before, because if they didn't like it, sorry. Don't continue. I. And if I don't like you, sorry, don't waste my manager's time. Right.

Cary Sparrow: Yeah, no, I'm a big believer that I actually put more emphasis on giving people the, you know, every opportunity to opt out. I would much rather have people say, this isn't gonna be a fit for me. Um, and, and back away than for us to find it out, you know? A couple months down the road,

Sean Weisbrot: hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far, and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of we're, and every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love so that we can bring you something amazing. And every week we're trying really hard to get better guests. That have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much and we'll take you back to the show. Now I want to talk more about ai. That's something we talked a lot about in our intro call and where things are going and some of the data you guys are working with and the different sources, and it's really interesting to me how AI is rapidly changing human resources and operations in general. How do you see it happening across your network, especially with the data you have access to that you're providing to your clients?

Cary Sparrow: Well, by way of context, um, my view on the form of AI that's available now is that it's even more transformative than what smartphones were when they were introduced. Um, even when smartphones were introduced, people didn't really. Understand how they would change society and change lives, uh, as dramatically as, uh, as they have, um. And I would say the, the same is true with, with ai. It is pervasive, uh, the amount of disruption that we're in the middle of and that will, you know, land upon us, uh, within the coming, you know, just year or so, um, is astounding. And that brings with it, you know, risks, but also tremendous opportunities in, in the business of, you know, our business is labor market intelligence. One of the ways that, uh, AI is, um, is, is rapidly, you know, changing how we even think about the businesses. It's offering a, uh, an interface with anyone who needs to know, to know what's happening, you know, in the market for jobs and skill in the market for pay and so forth. Uh, so that it's very naturally accessible. Um, you know, right now, if you wanna understand kind of what's happening in a specific part of the economy, like what we deal with, uh, it helps significantly if you have a little bit of an economic background and if you have a background in analytics, um, that's not true. Going forward. I mean, we're, we're several, you know, just a couple months away from releasing a, uh, an interface that's a natural language interface for us that you could ask any question to and it will, you know, be able to respond. Built off our, our data, there's a number of models out there, chat, GBD being one of them, um, that are pretty astounding at what they can do, but they're limited by. The training data that they have available to 'em. And so if you want to go and ask like. You know, how much does a, uh, marketing manager in Nashville, Tennessee make? Um, the models that are available today are really limited in the quality that they'll be able to give you, but built on top of our data, they won't be. And then you combine that, that kind of interface with other sources of, of information, uh, and you, you get basically. A smart companion that can, you know, almost like, you know, the, the thing that I would equate it to is like Jarvis in Ironman, you know, this smart assistant that can pretty much do anything you ask it to do. And that's just the beginning, you know, that's, that's just the beginning. Uh, that's not even talking about kind of the technical capabilities of, of AI in terms of being able to predict, um, being able to find. You know, emerging, you know, signals and trends, um, that's just on the interface itself. And the interface change is gonna be amazing.

Sean Weisbrot: What you said about creating a natural language processing tool assistant that allows your clients to ask questions of the database or data lake, whatever you want to call it. I think is an essential thing that every company will need to have internal For their own data. Yeah, absolutely. For them to be able to survive this decade.

Cary Sparrow: Yeah, no, I completely agree. So we, um, you know, uh, I talked about focus a little while ago, and so we have a focus on, you know, what, what we want to do to evolve our data platform and evolve our product set. But when it. When we saw the capabilities with, uh, large language models, we changed those priorities very, very quickly to put, um, a natural language, uh, interface at the top of the list because of exactly what you're talking about, the. The rate at which that is being adopted was really surprising to me when Chat GPT first got, you know, became, you know, more aware in the public. I figured personally I figured that that would be something that would roll out over the next, you know, several years and over the next several months it was already, you know, having an enormous impact. And my view is anyone who does not have that kind of interface a year from now is gonna be uncompetitive. And that's especially true for any technology and service provider. Um, but you're gonna be seeing more and more of it inside of, you know, corporate walls as well.

Sean Weisbrot: What do you think it's gonna take to get those corporations to acknowledge the need? Because one of the biggest problems is education.

Cary Sparrow: So this is where I think we can draw some lessons from, uh, other technology adoption, uh, experiences, especially smartphones. So I, you know, I used to work in consulting. I worked with. A couple hundred companies, uh, in my time as, as a consultant, I was on the corporate side of things and the market was already there. I mean, people would show up to work with their smartphones and corporate policies were, you know, still behind for security reasons. For cost reasons, for whatever reasons. Right. And at some point, and for some companies it was earlier, and some companies it was later. They just recognized that that was the way it was gonna work. That was how people were accessing functionality, accessing information, communicating with each other, you know, was, and so they could e either, you know, put up barriers, uh, to it or just embrace it. And so it might take a little time. And the time would be measured in the turnover cycle for managers? I think. So. If someone's in their, you know, if a, if a typical kind of. Uh, director level leader is in their role for three years, and I think it'll take like two, two turns of that for even the late adopters to start embracing things.

Sean Weisbrot: So then it'll take four to six years for corporations to be ready for something that they desperately need right now.

Cary Sparrow: Well, I think it'll be a little bit quicker, but corporations, especially big corporations, don't move real fast. So I think they'll have it. The individuals will have it in their lives immediately. But whether or not the business models and the operations models have changed that, that happens more slowly and, and the rate of changes dictated by budget cycles and by, you know, the approach that individual leaders take.

Sean Weisbrot: I agree that it comes from the personal side first. 'cause we saw students talking about how they were using chat to make essays, and then schools were like, no, you can't do that. And then you have company, you have people that are using chat Titi to write emails for clients or internal meeting notes or other things. And companies like, no, don't do that. And, and they're like, but it, it's making us more efficient. And they're like, okay, fine. You can use it. It's like everyone, it's, it's like companies are begrudgingly accepting the fact that AI tools are entering the place of work. Even though they need it in order to speed up their ability to make decisions, which will allow them to stay relevant,

Cary Sparrow: I think we're still in the phase where AI represent and we're, you know, especially talking about the new large language models that are available that will allow for, you know, really, um, effective creative, uh, you know, creative. Uh, insights, the ability to do things like, you know, write things that in the past only a skilled writer would be able to write. Um, I think we're still in the phase where, um, some companies are viewing that as a real opportunity. Like for us, as, as soon as chat GPT became available, our entire team adopted it because frankly, we have way more to do than we have time to do it. And if we can get, you know, if, if we can get a webpage written. Where 95% of it is right the first time within about two minutes, we're gonna do it. If we can get, you know, if we can post a job listing where, you know, my team doesn't have to think about how to write it to start with, they just fine tune it based on, you know, what, what comes back, uh, we're gonna do it right. So it's a huge time saver and it's a way to create, it's like a force multiplier for our company, right? Uh, and, and I think that. The adoption right now is still being driven by folks that see that as, as an opportunity and are, are embracing it, but I think relatively soon. Folks are gonna realize that if they don't have this, if they don't, if they haven't embraced that they're at a competitive disadvantage, they're not moving fast enough, um, they are not delivering the quality that folks expect. Uh, they're not working with their customers the way that customers are expecting to be dealt with. Uh, they are not attracting the kind of talent. That they need. So imagine, if you will, that you're hiring for a marketing ma manager that that 90% of their job is writing copy right now. There's lots of folks that are like that. A year from now you're still gonna find folks that, that are like that, but they're not gonna be the ones that are, you know, interested in being at the leading edge of marketing capabilities because. You know, 90% of copywriting can be done by ai.

Sean Weisbrot: What's something that you've been thinking a lot about that you're excited for the future?

Cary Sparrow: Oh, I thought you were gonna ask what I was worried about, about the future. Uh, excited, uh, for the future. Yeah. Um, I, you know, in, in general, in business and in life, uh, I am a guy that sees possibilities. And so all the change that's around us for me is not a threat. It's an opportunity. It's something exciting. It's new frontiers, uh, that are there to be explored. And so, you know, societally, I see, uh, just a lot of opportunity. Like, like here's an example. Um. I founded our business in order to bring transparency to the labor market, which is a really geeky, you know, most people would be like, that's. You know, why would you do that? But the reality is that when you've got a market and you can bring transparency in, um, all kinds of new innovations just start happening, right? People see opportunities, uh, and those innovations, uh, bring jobs, bring fulfillment, bring quality of life, uh, lots of different things. Um, most people measure opportunities in terms of efficiency and yeah, that's there too. So the ability to do more with less or the ability to do the same with even less, um, is something that is appealing to, to corporations and so forth. But for me, the bigger opportunity is. Uh, that, um, you know, it, you, you can create innovation and I see the pace of innovation in general continuing to accelerate and who knows where it's gonna lead. Uh, innovation and disruption are really scary, uh, in some cases, but they're really exciting in other cases, and I get excited by that.

Sean Weisbrot: So you get excited by the idea of scaring people?

Cary Sparrow: Well, you know, uh, a good friend of mine once told me a long time ago, the best adventures aren't always fun when they're happening. Uh, and so, so, uh, which I really believe, uh, but I think the things that are the most fulfilling have an element of the unknown in them. Uh, okay. So then what are you worried about? Truth. I'm worried about truth actually. So we're in the business of truth, but the reality is if, if you can access information, you don't really care who's telling you the answer and you don't really care where you know where that answer is coming from, which means that there's lots of different versions of the truth, and we're seeing this play out every single day. Uh, you know, in the political realm especially, I would say, but there's lots of different versions of truth and to the point where there are, you know, emerging realities in our society that are wildly different depending on where you're sitting and where you're getting your information from. And there's, you know, and, and by reality I mean everything that supports that too. It's not just that. You know, one outlet or one source of information is saying one thing and another is saying another. It's that entire way that society is thinking about things is fracturing. Uh, and so, you know, in our case, our market intelligence will answer very specific questions with very, very credible answers. You wanna know what's going on with pay in a certain market, with a certain kind of job, with certain skills. We know the answer to that and we, we know it in a highly, you know, credible, defensible way. But when you introduce an ability for somebody to ask that kind of question in a way that is natural to them, and they get an answer that sounds good, are they gonna know that it's not the right answer? In most cases, not right. And so, you know, whether on the small technical scale, like what we deal with in our business or on a big societal scale. I think that there's, you know, a real reckoning with what truth is, and I think we're on a path right now that says there's gonna be different versions of the truth and there's gonna be different realities built around those different versions of truth.

Sean Weisbrot: How do you reconcile that as the founder of a company that serves truth?

Cary (2): We run really fast to make sure our version of the truth is, is the one that most people hear.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. Yeah, I don't really think there's much more you can do about that. But I mean, product wise, how, like what are things, not just your company, but any company that deals in truth can do to reassure customers that the truth they're being told is valid and credible?

Cary Sparrow: Boy, you know, there's a lot that goes in, goes into that. Um. One of the things is to recognize that truth is shaped not just by a single organization or a single person. It's, it's shaped by a whole kind of network of folks that, um, uh, that are the purveyors of, of truth. Now, I'll, I'll give you an example. Um, one of our big client segments are folks that, um, uh, help set policies for pay in companies. And those folks that do that are very concerned about making sure that the data that they have available to them about what's going on with pay in different markets is highly credible. They know where it's coming from, they know how it's being processed, they know how to understand it interpreted, um, and. And so how to influence those folks. There's a part of it, which is technical, being really transparent about where the truth is coming from, right? And how, and, and and allowing people to kind of see what's really under the covers. But there's another bigger part to it, which is who else do those folks, um, depend on to reinforce what truth is. And so in that case, you know, the, the compensation folks look to. Big compensation consulting firms, as an example. Big industry associations, other big, uh, other big technology providers. Um, there's, there's like mavens of truth, if you will. Uh, that are every day in, uh, you know, involved in the folks that we want to be influencing. Um, so our, our approach can't just be a technical approach, which is that, you know, we have kind of the best, you know, whatever, in order to deliver you kind of a next generation market intelligence product. Um, we have to go and we have to sell all the people who are the influencers. That that is in fact true. We have to get them to adopt us. We have to get them to be able to demonstrate and influence the folks, you know, that they're already influencing around the direction that this kind of next generation approach takes. And so, and the more that we do that, by the way, the, the more kind of, um, self-sustaining momentum builds up for our version of the truth. Our entire approach around the market has not been to go chase the next sale, only. It's been who are, you know, really understanding kind of the network around our target audiences and who do those folks really depend on and going and, and getting close and, and, and, uh, building alliances with those influencers. It's, part of it is, is like what you see with, with retail products, I think, and influencers online, but it's a bigger, you know, it's a bigger and longer lasting, uh, network that we're talking about.

Sean Weisbrot: What's the most important thing you've learned in your life so far? Wow.

Cary Sparrow: I don't know if I could stack rank those, uh, things. You know, I'm, I'm learning every single day. I guess one of the biggest things that I've learned is to, you know, appreciate what you've got when you've got it. And, uh, not assume that you know everything, but, uh, uh, you know, be excited about what you're, uh, what you're learning. Along the way. My planning horizon, uh, has simultaneously gotten longer and has shrunk. Uh, so, um. You know, I, I, uh, you know, this is getting a, a bit philosophical, but um. You know, I focus on those that are most, you know, immediate around me and what we're doing on any given day. 'cause I don't wanna lose, you know, the, uh, the quality of any given day. And at the same time, um, I look at trends that extend years and years out and say, what does that mean in terms of where we need to go?

Sean Weisbrot: I think it's really important to think in longer term horizons that's. What I've done that allowed me to get in the blockchain industry in 2015, and that's allowed me to see ai, you know, even several years ago, uh, even though it wasn't possible to really do much with my non-technical ability until now, but it's still so nascent that anyone focusing on it right now for the next 10 years, they will still have huge potential in that time period. And that's why it's what I'm focused on. The thing that I see coming up after that is quantum. And I think when quantum becomes something people can access, it will really take AI and like make it explode. And that's where I get worried because when quantum couples with ai, I think anything is possible and. I can't see. I can't see that far. That's what scares me with ai. It makes sense. I can see what's gonna happen. But when you include it, when you include Con Quantum, I stop being able to see that.

Cary Sparrow: Okay. So, you know, AI is really exciting, I think, and um, you know, but people worry. I think there's a number of folks that also can't see the horizon on where AI is going. And they worry about, you know, is this gonna exceed kind of the. Uh, the capability of, of people, of humans, of humankind, uh, in the, in the near future because the, the pace of AI's capabilities is accelerating, um, faster than, than we can adapt to. And I actually think that, that humans are pretty adaptable. Uh, I think that we'll figure this out. Um, but when you add quantum in, then you open up. A lot of possibilities. You know, you, you open up the ability for interfaces that integrate really seamlessly with our own experience, whether it's vision, hearing, touch, uh, you now bring in the computing power to be able to create, literally create new realities, new physical realities around people. And as the, as we figure out how to create. The machines that afford that. Quantum is absolutely gonna be a part of that. And so what is it gonna mean to be a person in the future now is is already evolving, right? So William Gibson, the guy who wrote Neuro Answer, had a great quote I love, which is, goes to the effect of the future's already here. It's just not evenly distributed. Right. And I think that that's the case in, in, in ai. Absolutely. Um, we're already seeing kind of what the future can, but quantum. Is something opens up possibilities that have been written about, um, but most of us haven't really experienced yet in terms of different realities. Um, and being able to interact with each other, um, irrespective of time or place and create kind of lives for ourselves that is irrespective of what's actually happening in the physical world. So, um, you know, it's a pretty. Exciting and, and potentially scary frontier. Uh, but it's, that's, that's the ride we're on.